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Bigfoot38
04-29-2008, 05:31 PM
I was looking at Jerry Owens stats in AAA after coming off the DL

he is hitting well, taking walks(tied for lead in team after not playing much), and stealing bases.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Jerry%20Owens&pos=&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=435539

However clearly there is no room for him up here. No way he sits on the bench, and our outfield is pretty damn good.


I was wondering what we do with him at this point:

3 outfielders current contracts

Dye: 2 yrs/ 22M with a mutual option for 2010
Swisher: 5 yr/ 26.75 M signed through 2010 with club opiton for 2011
TCQ: 1 yr/ .4 M (clearly would be re-signed if perfomed like this)

- leave him down there all year, after all Quentin is injury prone.
- trade bait for deadline deal
- There is no way he can stay down there through this year and next year, grrr how about we make a new defense with Juan Uribe on the bench and 4 outfielders??

Owens is my boy, but he doesnt fit up here and deserves play, but will it be here in Chicago?

Frater Perdurabo
04-29-2008, 05:32 PM
Depth is a good thing.

kittle42
04-29-2008, 05:35 PM
He's not trade bait. Why does everyone think our minor leaguers who aren't even good enough to crack 25th man on our team and have generally not shown anything in the majors are trade bait? The Giants just put Rajai Davis on waivers and he might be better than Owens or Anderson.

UofCSoxFan
04-29-2008, 05:35 PM
I think 1 of two things happens:

1) He stays down there until there is an injury.
2) He eventually replaces Brian Anderson and takes on a similar role (2 to 3 starts a week, pinich runner, late inning defensive replacement)...he would probably get a little more PT than BA now since he'd play in center over Ramierez. He also could get down a damn bunt.

No way you trade him.

sox1970
04-29-2008, 05:38 PM
I'd have Owens up and Ramirez down yesterday.

VeeckAsInWreck
04-29-2008, 05:40 PM
I'd have Owens up and Ramirez down yesterday.

And carry 5 outfielders? No thanks. Owens has consistently hit well in the minors but he'll just have to wait for an opening.

DSpivack
04-29-2008, 05:42 PM
I'd have Owens up and Ramirez down yesterday.

I wouldn't mind seeing Alexei down to let him play every day, but bringing up another OF wouldn't be the right fit.

NADA SURF
04-29-2008, 05:43 PM
He's not trade bait. Why does everyone think our minor leaguers who aren't even good enough to crack 25th man on our team and have generally not shown anything in the majors are trade bait? The Giants just put Rajai Davis on waivers and he might be better than Owens or Anderson.
I'd bet a lot of teams would be interested in Jerry Owens...
I hope he stays.

sox1970
04-29-2008, 05:43 PM
And carry 5 outfielders? No thanks. Owens has consistently hit well in the minors but he'll just have to wait for an opening.

Up until the last week, they were using Ramirez as an outfielder.

Owens is just a better option to pinch run and lead off when Swisher, Thome, Konerko, or Dye get a day off.

DSpivack
04-29-2008, 05:45 PM
Up until the last week, they were using Ramirez as an outfielder.

Owens is just a better option to pinch run and lead off when Swisher, Thome, Konerko, or Dye get a day off.

Having Owens and BA up here would be superfluous, and only lead to reduced playing time for the both of them. Pass.

Tragg
04-29-2008, 05:47 PM
If Owens has to be up here, exchange him for Uribe or Ozuna.

Although Uribe may be our starting SS next year which would be okay with me. Just not 2B

My preference is to leave Owens right where he is.

sox1970
04-29-2008, 05:48 PM
Having Owens and BA up here would be superfluous, and only lead to reduced playing time for the both of them. Pass.

I don't give a crap about how much playing time they get. Ramirez can't hit.

oeo
04-29-2008, 05:48 PM
Up until the last week, they were using Ramirez as an outfielder.

And Ramirez can play the infield, while Owens can't. Who cares if Ramirez was getting time in the outfield? :scratch:

It doesn't have anything to do with what positions he has played, but what positions he can play.

JB98
04-29-2008, 05:50 PM
Having Owens and BA up here would be superfluous, and only lead to reduced playing time for the both of them. Pass.

Agreed. If people want to send Ramirez down to get more regular ABs, then we need to recall an infielder.

American League teams don't need to carry five outfielders.

NADA SURF
04-29-2008, 05:50 PM
I'd have Owens up and Ramirez down yesterday.
That might be a good move...
And if Ramirez hits down there, put him a SS and deal Cabrera for bullpen help.
They also could dump Uribe for a minor leaguer and call up Owens. Find Owens time by giving Konerko, Dye, Thome, Swisher and Quentin days off.
We need a muckraker in the lead-off spot.

oeo
04-29-2008, 05:50 PM
If Owens has to be up here, exchange him for Uribe or Ozuna.

This makes a ton of sense.

kittle42
04-29-2008, 05:51 PM
I'd bet a lot of teams would be interested in Jerry Owens...

Good point...maybe if we package him with Uribe, MacDougal, and Broadway, we can get Brian Roberts!

NADA SURF
04-29-2008, 05:57 PM
Good point...maybe if we package him with Uribe, MacDougal, and Broadway, we can get Brian Roberts!
Maybe we could.
I'm not sure I'd make that deal from the Sox side, though.
I'm pretty high on Broadway.

UofCSoxFan
04-29-2008, 05:58 PM
That might be a good move...
And if Ramirez hits down there, put him a SS and deal Cabrera for bullpen help.


No.

First off you don't trade a gold glove winner at the most important defensive position for middle relief. Second, you do remember that we just traded Garland for Cabrera. If we trade Cabrera for middle relief, thats like trading Garland for middle relief. Do you see how terrible this sounds?
Third, just b/c Ramirez hits in the minors doesn't mean he will hit in the majors. See pretty much every major prospect we've brought up the past few years.

VeeckAsInWreck
04-29-2008, 06:02 PM
Up until the last week, they were using Ramirez as an outfielder.

That's because Ramirez can play both the OF and IF. If you bring Owens up he can only play the OF. The only other IF reserve will be Ozuna. Unless you want to include Toby Hall at 1B.

I know that Swish can also move to 1B. But outside of Pablo Ozuna you have no other player who can cover 2B, SS or 3B. If there is an injury to one or more of your starting IF then you'd be screwed. Unless you want Dye to play SS again.

Bringing Owens up would make no sense now. If Ramirez is going to AAA it should be when Richar is ready to come up. In the meantime leave the team as it is.

btrain929
04-29-2008, 06:04 PM
No.

First off you don't trade a gold glove winner at the most important defensive position for middle relief. Second, you do remember that we just traded Garland for Cabrera. If we trade Cabrera for middle relief, thats like trading Garland for middle relief. Do you see how terrible this sounds?
Third, just b/c Ramirez hits in the minors doesn't mean he will hit in the majors. See pretty much every major prospect we've brought up the past few years.

Fourth, I'd rather get 2 draft picks for Cabrera at the end of the year if he walks....then bullpen help.

Stoky44
04-29-2008, 08:00 PM
I think 1 of two things happens:

2) He eventually replaces Brian Anderson and takes on a similar role (2 to 3 starts a week, pinich runner, late inning defensive replacement)

No way Anderson will average this many starts a week, unless the injury bug hits. I know lately b/c JD went dow hw has had more ABs, I see him starting once a week, and rarely 2 times in a week. Unless of course there are injuries or Ozzie stops putting in Alexei in CF, which is a whole other arguement. BA should always be our 4th of player, not alexei. :angry:

UofCSoxFan
04-29-2008, 08:31 PM
No way Anderson will average this many starts a week, unless the injury bug hits. I know lately b/c JD went dow hw has had more ABs, I see him starting once a week, and rarely 2 times in a week. Unless of course there are injuries or Ozzie stops putting in Alexei in CF, which is a whole other arguement. BA should always be our 4th of player, not alexei. :angry:

Yeah you are right about BA. I was thinking more that if Owens was brought up he'd get 2 to 3 starts week since Alexi would be almost exclusively an IF and in the summer I can see TCQ, Swisher and JD getting at least one day off a week to stay fresh.

cws05champ
04-29-2008, 08:46 PM
That's because Ramirez can play both the OF and IF. If you bring Owens up he can only play the OF. The only other IF reserve will be Ozuna. Unless you want to include Toby Hall at 1B.

I know that Swish can also move to 1B. But outside of Pablo Ozuna you have no other player who can cover 2B, SS or 3B. If there is an injury to one or more of your starting IF then you'd be screwed. Unless you want Dye to play SS again.

Bringing Owens up would make no sense now. If Ramirez is going to AAA it should be when Richar is ready to come up. In the meantime leave the team as it is.

I don't know why everyone would have a problem exhanging Owens for Ramirez. Ozuna can play 2B, 3B, Swish can play 1B, Uribe can play SS if OC needs a day off. You have back ups at every IF position.

ondafarm
04-29-2008, 09:10 PM
For Alexei's sake, I'd like to see him and Owens switch teams. The Sox need the speed and Owens is a capable hitter and lead-off man. Swisher needs a bit more days off than he's getting.

Daver
04-29-2008, 09:13 PM
No.

First off you don't trade a gold glove winner at the most important defensive position for middle relief

A.J. has never won a gold glove, and never will.

getonbckthr
04-29-2008, 09:15 PM
He's not trade bait. Why does everyone think our minor leaguers who aren't even good enough to crack 25th man on our team and have generally not shown anything in the majors are trade bait? The Giants just put Rajai Davis on waivers and he might be better than Owens or Anderson.
Who should he start over in our OF? If there was an opening he would be up here unfortunately for Jerry right now we have 3 OF'rs who doing great.

NADA SURF
04-29-2008, 09:43 PM
No.

First off you don't trade a gold glove winner at the most important defensive position for middle relief. Second, you do remember that we just traded Garland for Cabrera. If we trade Cabrera for middle relief, thats like trading Garland for middle relief. Do you see how terrible this sounds?
Third, just b/c Ramirez hits in the minors doesn't mean he will hit in the majors. See pretty much every major prospect we've brought up the past few years.
The bullpen is becoming the key part of any team now...
Cabrera looks like his better days are behind him. I hope they don't try to keep him around. There are better out there now.

Craig Grebeck
04-29-2008, 10:40 PM
Trading Cabrera for middle relief would be hilariously foolish. He was acquired for one reason -- draft picks. If we trade him for middle relief, there goes the compensation picks.

Here's the reality of the Jerry Owens situation: we have 3 OF who will be here this year and next, and we have perhaps the best defensive 4th OF in the game. There is no room for him, and most likely won't be until 2010 and he is nearing 30. When I hear Jerry Owens, the phrase "career minor leaguer" comes to mind. He's a terrible baseball player.

KyWhiSoxFan
04-29-2008, 10:54 PM
At this point I would like to see Owens called up. Not that I'm a big fans of his, but I would like to see the Sox have a traditional leadoff hitter who has speed and can steal bases and make some things happen. Plus it would move Swisher down to the middle of the order where I think he would be more effective, where he is able to drive in some runs and get on base at a high percentage. If all the Sox need is a guy who walks and has no speed to lead off games, then bat Thome first.

This teams needs some energy and needs to manufacture some runs. Station-to-station play is a tough way to generate runs consistently. And the fact they are playing station-to-station with their leadoff hitter, Swisher, who has no speed, makes it more probable this team will be inconsistent from game to game scoring runs.

If Owens is not the answer, then the Sox should trade for someone who is. Swisher needs to be put in the middle of the lineup where he was targeted to play when they traded for him.

kittle42
04-29-2008, 10:56 PM
Who should he start over in our OF? If there was an opening he would be up here unfortunately for Jerry right now we have 3 OF'rs who doing great.

Nobody.

Craig Grebeck
04-29-2008, 11:12 PM
At this point I would like to see Owens called up. Not that I'm a big fans of his, but I would like to see the Sox have a traditional leadoff hitter who has speed and can steal bases and make some things happen. Plus it would move Swisher down to the middle of the order where I think he would be more effective, where he is able to drive in some runs and get on base at a high percentage. If all the Sox need is a guy who walks and has no speed to lead off games, then bat Thome first.

This teams needs some energy and needs to manufacture some runs. Station-to-station play is a tough way to generate runs consistently. And the fact they are playing station-to-station with their leadoff hitter, Swisher, who has no speed, makes it more probable this team will be inconsistent from game to game scoring runs.

If Owens is not the answer, then the Sox should trade for someone who is. Swisher needs to be put in the middle of the lineup where he was targeted to play when they traded for him.
And who do you suggest you play Owens ahead of?

Madvora
04-29-2008, 11:19 PM
And who do you suggest you play Owens ahead of?
Why not let him DH?
I'd seriously take that experiment for a few days.

Craig Grebeck
04-29-2008, 11:21 PM
Why not let him DH?
I'd seriously take that experiment for a few days.
Puke.

Do you realize Jim Thome has the highest OPS of all DH? Do you realize Jim Thome is batting .214 and still outproducing his position by a huge margin? He will be ok.

Posts like this make me think we don't deserve hitters as good as Jim Thome.

UofCSoxFan
04-29-2008, 11:26 PM
A.J. has never won a gold glove, and never will.

?

You aren't seriously saying catcher is the most important defensive position are you?

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 11:30 PM
While there is something to be said for playing in AAA every day, I would much rather see him up here and Ramirez in AAA.

Ramirez is simply not ready for prime time. Yesterday's AB was the final nail for me, swinging at the first pitch right after the base loading walk.

sox1970
04-29-2008, 11:38 PM
Paulie is sitting tomorrow. Wouldn't it be nice if Owens was on the team, and he lead off?

Owens-CF
Cabrera-SS
Thome-DH
Dye-RF
Swisher-1B
Quentin-LF
Pierzynski-C
Crede-3B
Uribe-2B

I like this lineup better than whatever they'll do tomorrow.

Craig Grebeck
04-29-2008, 11:45 PM
Paulie is sitting tomorrow. Wouldn't it be nice if Owens was on the team, and he lead off?

Owens-CF
Cabrera-SS
Thome-DH
Dye-RF
Swisher-1B
Quentin-LF
Pierzynski-C
Crede-3B
Uribe-2B

I like this lineup better than whatever they'll do tomorrow.
I really don't understand why people are pining for Owens grounding out to 2nd base every at bat.

sox1970
04-29-2008, 11:49 PM
I really don't understand why people are pining for Owens grounding out to 2nd base every at bat.

A year ago I would have agreed with you, but I think Owens has improved with the bat. He's taking more walks, and he can put a lot of pressure on the pitcher when he's on base.

I'm not saying he should play every day, but he'd be a decent leadoff option when one of the middle of the order guys sit.

Ramirez is worthless.

Craig Grebeck
04-29-2008, 11:51 PM
A year ago I would have agreed with you, but I think Owens has improved with the bat. He's taking more walks, and he can put a lot of pressure on the pitcher when he's on base.

I'm not saying he should play every day, but he'd be a decent leadoff option when one of the middle of the order guys sit.

Ramirez is worthless.
Ramirez needs to be in AAA, but Owens does not need to be up. He's 27 -- he should be tearing up MiLB the same way that DeWayne Wise is.

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 11:52 PM
Ramirez is worthless.


:hawk

"Yessir........our "Cuban Rocket" is more of a "Cuban Missle Crisis".........mercy."

kittle42
04-30-2008, 12:13 AM
People have a jones for Owens because they think the key to any successful team is a Scott Podsednik.

Never mind that Owens isn't very good, or that he would start maybe once a week. 2005!

RockJock07
04-30-2008, 12:23 AM
At this point this team need a swift kick in the ***. I really wish KW could trade Konerko. I really want him to stay, I really do, but at this point having speed is becoming more and more important.

WhiteSox5187
04-30-2008, 02:27 AM
I really don't understand why people are pining for Owens grounding out to 2nd base every at bat.
Well that would be because we want to see what he could do. Obviously have seen into the future and know that he will ground out to second all the time and clearly has no future in major league baseball. Never mind that he hit about .350 in September and could provide this team a guy who can steal bases and bunt (something we DESPERATELY need by the way), but hey! The guy can't hit for power. **** him. We don't want those guys who can execute on our team. We want more power! Let's call up Fields and have him lead off!

NADA SURF
04-30-2008, 03:03 AM
Puke.

Do you realize Jim Thome has the highest OPS of all DH? Do you realize Jim Thome is batting .214 and still outproducing his position by a huge margin? He will be ok.

Posts like this make me think we don't deserve hitters as good as Jim Thome.
I can just see it now...
Thome will go up to KW and say, "That's it!. I read what that Madvora said about me on the WSI site and you guys are not worthy of me. I'm outta here!"

NADA SURF
04-30-2008, 03:23 AM
I really don't understand why people are pining for Owens grounding out to 2nd base every at bat.
Grebeck...You're great with the batting formulas...
Can you tell me which formula you used to determine that Jerry Owens grounded out to second every time even though he hit .267 with a strong finish in his FIRST SEASON in the majors?

LITTLE NELL
04-30-2008, 06:10 AM
As of right now our top 4 guys in the order are batting .222,.225,.216 and.221. Its time for a real leadoff hitter to get this offense going. Bring Owens up and send A.R. down so he can play everyday

MISoxfan
04-30-2008, 07:36 AM
As of right now our top 4 guys in the order are batting .222,.225,.216 and.221. Its time for a real leadoff hitter to get this offense going. Bring Owens up and send A.R. down so he can play everyday

The only place we have room for a real leadoff hitter is at 2b.

You can't possibly bench TCQ, Dye, Thome, or Swisher

Craig Grebeck
04-30-2008, 08:15 AM
Where do you people want him playing?

GAsoxfan
04-30-2008, 08:59 AM
Where do you people want him playing?

How about as a designated runner for Thome? He could stand next to the batter's box while Thome's hitting and then run for him. You keep Thome's power and improve team speed at the same time!

ondafarm
04-30-2008, 09:32 AM
I'd let Owens start in CF and rotate all four outfielders depending on L/R. Swish would also get some time at 1B.

Craig Grebeck
04-30-2008, 11:50 AM
I'd let Owens start in CF and rotate all four outfielders depending on L/R. Swish would also get some time at 1B.
Why would you play him at the expense of Quentin? Why should he be part of a rotation that includes 3 all-star caliber outfielders?

This is a ****ing joke.

TomBradley72
04-30-2008, 11:54 AM
Sun Times reports this morning that the Sox are considering bringing Owens up and sending Ramirez down. For Alexei's sake (needs to play every day) as well as the chance to get Owens' speed into the mix (off the bench, pinch running)...I like the move.

Craig Grebeck
04-30-2008, 11:56 AM
Sun Times reports this morning that the Sox are considering bringing Owens up and sending Ramirez down. For Alexei's sake (needs to play every day) as well as the chance to get Owens' speed into the mix (off the bench, pinch running)...I like the move.
As long as KW tells Ozzie that JO shall be treated as a fifth outfielder, then it's an alright move.

sox1970
04-30-2008, 12:11 PM
Sun Times reports this morning that the Sox are considering bringing Owens up and sending Ramirez down. For Alexei's sake (needs to play every day) as well as the chance to get Owens' speed into the mix (off the bench, pinch running)...I like the move.

Good. Owens is batting .300 at AAA, and has an OBP at .400. I don't want him to be an everyday player here, but he's certainly a better option on the bench than Ramirez.

southsideirish71
04-30-2008, 12:18 PM
Good. Owens is batting .300 at AAA, and has an OBP at .400. I don't want him to be an everyday player here, but he's certainly a better option on the bench than Ramirez.

Lets take a gander at the International League shall we.

Last year Brett Printz looked like Joe Nathan. Came up, got leveled.
Felix Diaz looked like Cy Young, came up, got leveled.

You realize that Owens is taking his bats against guys like Tim Redding, and other associated crap right. Lets not get all excited about him lighting up th world in a bandbox with AAAA pitchers.

turners56
04-30-2008, 12:19 PM
Owens is different though, he played adequately in the majors the year before, unlike Brett Prinz and Felix Diaz (he's still in our minor league system? I remember him from 2003...).

sox1970
04-30-2008, 12:20 PM
Lets take a gander at the International League shall we.

Last year Brett Printz looked like Joe Nathan. Came up, got leveled.
Felix Diaz looked like Cy Young, came up, got leveled.

You realize that Owens is taking his bats against guys like Tim Redding, and other associated crap right. Lets not get all excited about him lighting up th world in a bandbox with AAAA pitchers.

Better than hitting .200 and an OBP of .300 at AAA.

Point being---Owens is hitting, and did well late last year. He's a better option than Ramirez for this team. I can't believe anyone would want Ramirez on this team.

kittle42
04-30-2008, 12:24 PM
Better than hitting .200 and an OBP of .300 at AAA.

Point being---Owens is hitting, and did well late last year. He's a better option than Ramirez for this team. I can't believe anyone would want Ramirez on this team.


I don't think anyone does. It's the people suggesting that Owens take playing time away from three far superior OFs that is nothing less than completely idiotic.

sox1970
04-30-2008, 12:28 PM
I don't think anyone does. It's the people suggesting that Owens take playing time away from three far superior OFs that is nothing less than completely idiotic.

I hope nobody thinks Owens should come up to play everyday either.

Konerko is sitting today. Today would be a good day to have Owens lead off and have Swisher bat further down in the order.

Same for when Dye was out for a few days.

Craig Grebeck
04-30-2008, 12:28 PM
I don't think anyone does. It's the people suggesting that Owens take playing time away from three far superior OFs that is nothing less than completely idiotic.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you. I want to quote this every time someone even mentions "Owens" and "starting lineup" in the same sentence.

kittle42
04-30-2008, 12:42 PM
I hope nobody thinks Owens should come up to play everyday either.

Konerko is sitting today. Today would be a good day to have Owens lead off and have Swisher bat further down in the order.

Same for when Dye was out for a few days.

I agree. That's why he needs to be up and Anderson or Ramirez needs to go down.

sox1970
04-30-2008, 12:47 PM
FYI...Owens is 2-3 today. Double and a homer. Currently batting .311 at Charlotte.

I'm predicting he'll be in Toronto on Friday.

hawkjt
04-30-2008, 01:04 PM
I agree, Cowley just said that Kenny has told Ozzie that Owens is ready to go and Oz just has to give the word.
I think he is up no later than next week.
Ozzie is getting fed up with our offensive stagnation.
Swisher is hitting less than .180 the last 12 games...half the season so far. Yes, he has walked but he has zero steals.
The key is a guy that can get to second with no outs leading off like Pods did so much in the first half of 05 that led to a record 20 something straight games with a lead for the sox. Get out ahead ,in the first. Even with Nicks walks...it has not happened that often.

Craig Grebeck
04-30-2008, 01:08 PM
Once again, where does he play?

oeo
04-30-2008, 01:08 PM
I agree, Cowley just said that Kenny has told Ozzie that Owens is ready to go and Oz just has to give the word.

If Kenny feels this way, then what was he thinking when he dealt for both Quentin and Swisher? Not that they were bad moves, they weren't, but these guys were acquired to start. Owens makes no sense unless he quickly learns 2B.

Tragg
04-30-2008, 01:17 PM
A .330 OBP slap hitter with zero power is just what this offense needs to get it out of its current slump.
Ozzie had Quentin 3rd string behind Owens and Ramirez to start the year, so I guess anything - even something so senseless as bringing up Jerry Owens - is possible.

turners56
04-30-2008, 01:37 PM
Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you. I want to quote this every time someone even mentions "Owens" and "starting lineup" in the same sentence.

I'm sorry for doing this. But say Swisher continues to slump as the leadoff man and Owens does well in his limited time as a 4th outfielder. What IF Ozzie promotes Owens to the leadoff role? We all know Ozzie loves speed. This might only happen if Dye also struggles or is has some nagging injury.

NADA SURF
04-30-2008, 03:22 PM
Where do you people want him playing?
To me, Konerko, and Dye are not worthy of totally full-time at bats anymore and I also would find a way to get him in for Thome, Swisher and Quentin at times.
It shouldn't be too hard. Most of them are hitting about .220 now...But then again, batting average probably isn't a very important stat, right?

NADA SURF
04-30-2008, 03:24 PM
Why would you play him at the expense of Quentin? Why should he be part of a rotation that includes 3 all-star caliber outfielders?

This is a ****ing joke.
Quentin has had a good start and I applaud him, but he was wretched in Arizona.
I still need to see more.
If I were GM, I'd be working on a deal to move Dye. I would have never re-signed him.

NADA SURF
04-30-2008, 03:26 PM
Lets take a gander at the International League shall we.

Last year Brett Printz looked like Joe Nathan. Came up, got leveled.
Felix Diaz looked like Cy Young, came up, got leveled.

You realize that Owens is taking his bats against guys like Tim Redding, and other associated crap right. Lets not get all excited about him lighting up th world in a bandbox with AAAA pitchers.
Last year, Owens, IN HIS ROOKIE SEASON, hit .267 and got hot down the stretch. He also stole over 30 bases.

sox1970
04-30-2008, 03:28 PM
Quentin has had a good start and I applaud him, but he was wretched in Arizona.
I still need to see more.
If I were GM, I'd be working on a deal to move Dye. I would have never re-signed him.

Hindsight is a great thing on the Dye re-signing. Sure, if you knew at the time that Quentin would be this good and healthy, and that they were going to get he and Swisher, then of course they wouldn't have had Dye.

By the way, you don't need to see anymore of Q to know he's an everyday player here for the next 5 years.

NADA SURF
04-30-2008, 03:29 PM
Once again, where does he play?

How about let's make Swisher the No.5 outfielder and let Paulie have some fewer at bats until they show they can hit in 2008?

kittle42
04-30-2008, 03:36 PM
How about let's make Swisher the No.5 outfielder and let Paulie have some fewer at bats until they show they can hit in 2008?

That's a pretty ****ty idea. You'd be quite the popular manager.

spiffie
04-30-2008, 03:42 PM
How about let's make Swisher the No.5 outfielder and let Paulie have some fewer at bats until they show they can hit in 2008?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2007/2228616341_64a83a9447.jpg

NADA SURF
04-30-2008, 04:04 PM
That's a pretty ****ty idea. You'd be quite the popular manager.
They won't have to like me, but they WILL have to respect me. LOL

NADA SURF
04-30-2008, 04:06 PM
Hindsight is a great thing on the Dye re-signing. Sure, if you knew at the time that Quentin would be this good and healthy, and that they were going to get he and Swisher, then of course they wouldn't have had Dye.

By the way, you don't need to see anymore of Q to know he's an everyday player here for the next 5 years.Even though Quentin is hot, there is still a shot that he'll finish with a .233 average and never see another major league ballgame prior to September in the coming years.

southsideirish71
04-30-2008, 04:12 PM
Even though Quentin is hot, there is still a shot that he'll finish with a .233 average and never see another major league ballgame prior to September in the coming years.

The difference is that Quentin has the pedigree to be a great hitter. He was a first round draft pick, lit up the minors. I would bet on his success as long as he keeps healthy.

brumski
04-30-2008, 07:39 PM
If Owens is such a sensational athlete, couldnt he play 2b? I know it stunts his growth in CF, but the guy has been playing CF since little league, wouldnt one year of playing 2B and hitting major league pitching do him more justice?

It's Dankerific
04-30-2008, 07:47 PM
All minor leaguers should rotate between the 8 defensive fielding positions on the diamond so that they can be well rounded and be called up for any position the big league club has a need in....

FireMariotti
04-30-2008, 07:50 PM
Please...let's not call him J.O.

GoSox2K3
04-30-2008, 08:04 PM
FYI...Owens is 2-3 today. Double and a homer. Currently batting .311 at Charlotte.

I'm predicting he'll be in Toronto on Friday.

...and Anderson was 3-4 today. Currently batting .300 in Chicago.

I'd like to see Owens up, but there's no room for him. BA hasn't "earned" a demotion yet....I can't imagine sending him down now just as he's getting some hits.

The only way Owens comes up is to replace Ramirez (visa problems), but then that leaves us short an infielder.

TomC727
04-30-2008, 08:23 PM
Doesn't Owens throw left handed, which would seriously eliminate him from playing 2B.

And him playing 2B even if he throws right handed might be the most useless thing I have ever heard. I think I just had brain cells die from reading that suggestion

That is all.

getonbckthr
04-30-2008, 08:25 PM
I like my Ryan Freel Idea better.

btrain929
04-30-2008, 08:26 PM
If Owens is such a sensational athlete, couldnt he play 2b? I know it stunts his growth in CF, but the guy has been playing CF since little league, wouldnt one year of playing 2B and hitting major league pitching do him more justice?

Pleeeeeeeeeease tell me this was implied teal.....

Madscout
04-30-2008, 08:54 PM
Do we have infielders in the system that can come up and not be harmed by the limited ABs? Ramirez down, that person up.
The only thing I can think of is trade BA, but I hate to think that because he could be a great asset next year, and is an CF of the future on this team. But there is no room for him right now to develope the way he needs.

hi im skot
04-30-2008, 08:55 PM
http://www.survivinggrady.com/spicoli.jpg

"AWESOME! TOTALLY AWESOME!"

TomBradley72
04-30-2008, 09:24 PM
If Owens is such a sensational athlete, couldnt he play 2b? I know it stunts his growth in CF, but the guy has been playing CF since little league, wouldnt one year of playing 2B and hitting major league pitching do him more justice?

One of the worst suggestions of all time. Sorry. Just a really bad idea.

Craig Grebeck
04-30-2008, 09:27 PM
I am embarrassed to breathe the same air as NADA SURF. Do you watch the games? Quentin is SPECIAL. Look at his minor league numbers. Owens is a slap-hitting, one-tool player.

DSpivack
04-30-2008, 09:31 PM
:dtroll::happybday:stooges::stirpot::rip:

Craig Grebeck
04-30-2008, 09:33 PM
I don't really feel like looking up Quentin's amazing minor league statistics, not to mention his great debut in MLB -- you can educate yourself Nada.

kittle42
05-01-2008, 12:45 AM
I don't really feel like looking up Quentin's amazing minor league statistics, not to mention his great debut in MLB -- you can educate yourself Nada.

I'll help.

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=11722

Impressive. Check out the BB/K ratio and OPS.

NADA SURF
05-01-2008, 02:00 AM
I am embarrassed to breathe the same air as NADA SURF. Do you watch the games? Quentin is SPECIAL. Look at his minor league numbers. Owens is a slap-hitting, one-tool player.
You NEED to start breathing my air!
Quentin has never done a thing other than one month...
He's playing well, but his success is also keeping back a player we need at the top of the order, which is Owens.
Owens can slap his way to a .270 average all he wants. I want him on base and causing trouble.
By the way, the Sox could have used one of those RBI today. Then again, they don't matter, right?

BoKnowsBest
05-01-2008, 02:35 AM
You NEED to start breathing my air!
Quentin has never done a thing other than one month...
He's playing well, but his success is also keeping back a player we need at the top of the order, which is Owens.
Owens can slap his way to a .270 average all he wants. I want him on base and causing trouble.
By the way, the Sox could have used one of those RBI today. Then again, they don't matter, right?

I agree, we'd be much better off with Owens slapping his way to a .270 average with an OBP of .324 than with Quentin hitting .300 with a .440 OBP. I mean in 2005 we had Pods slapping his way on base at only a .390 OBP. Wait, you mean thats much much better than Owens has ever done at any level higher than AA? Owens is useless except as a pinch runner. My grandma has a stronger arm than he does, at least she can hit the cutoff man without the ball rolling to him.

Maybe Owens has figured something out in his stint in AAA this year, but given Quentin's development and great minor league numbers, I couldn't see any reason for benching Quentin for the great Jerry Owens. If Owens has in fact figured something out, maybe next year he'll get some consideration for playing LF and leading off if Thome is gone and JD is the DH, but I don't see him adding anything to this team except occasionally pinch running in late inning situations.

NADA SURF
05-01-2008, 03:21 AM
I agree, we'd be much better off with Owens slapping his way to a .270 average with an OBP of .324 than with Quentin hitting .300 with a .440 OBP. I mean in 2005 we had Pods slapping his way on base at only a .390 OBP. Wait, you mean thats much much better than Owens has ever done at any level higher than AA? Owens is useless except as a pinch runner. My grandma has a stronger arm than he does, at least she can hit the cutoff man without the ball rolling to him.

Maybe Owens has figured something out in his stint in AAA this year, but given Quentin's development and great minor league numbers, I couldn't see any reason for benching Quentin for the great Jerry Owens. If Owens has in fact figured something out, maybe next year he'll get some consideration for playing LF and leading off if Thome is gone and JD is the DH, but I don't see him adding anything to this team except occasionally pinch running in late inning situations.
Simmer down, Bo!
I never said to sit Quentin and play Owens. I said to bring him up and find a way to get him in at lead-off...
I recommended moving Paulie or Dye to another team since they still might have a little trade value despite being as old and overpaid as they are.
By all means, keep Quentin in there while he's hot.
More realistically, a revolving door involving several players should get Owens some at bats.

kittle42
05-01-2008, 12:20 PM
More realistically, a revolving door involving several players should get Owens some at bats.

Horrible idea. Owens is THE WORST PLAYER OF ALL OF THEM (Dye, Konerko, Thome, Swisher, Quentin) that you contend belong in a revolving door. Instability in a lineup (as we have seen in the past) is also a horrible answer.

Minus a trade, this move would not bode well for the Sox, and no one is trading on May 1, and even if the Sox did pull off a trade of one of their high-caliber hitters, you would hope they'd get a leadoff man in return, which would nullify the Owens situation, anyway.

TomBradley72
05-01-2008, 01:57 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Owens getting 2-3 starts a week against RH pitching. (rest Dye and Konerko, occasionally Swisher or Quentin). We need some speed at the top of the order, Swisher can move back to his more natural position in the order, and we can break up "Mount Rushmore" in the middle of the order (Thome, Konerko, Dye, AJ, Crede). We could use a LH on the bench (replacing Alexei)...if Owens doesn't produce...Richar takes his place when he's healthy.

russ99
05-01-2008, 02:12 PM
Horrible idea. Owens is THE WORST PLAYER OF ALL OF THEM (Dye, Konerko, Thome, Swisher, Quentin) that you contend belong in a revolving door. Instability in a lineup (as we have seen in the past) is also a horrible answer.

Minus a trade, this move would not bode well for the Sox, and no one is trading on May 1, and even if the Sox did pull off a trade of one of their high-caliber hitters, you would hope they'd get a leadoff man in return, which would nullify the Owens situation, anyway.

Maybe we should think about a trade. Probably in June, since no-one trades in May.

Maybe we could deal one of Dye, Konerko or Thome, our slow-footed sluggers with (except Dye) awful batting averages and RISP.

Not sure what I'd want in return, either a vastly better hitting 2B with some pop and without a loss on defense (Roberts will be dealt for prospects, not expensive players) or pitching, preferably another young starter with one of our guys moving to the pen or maybe another experienced righty reliever.

I'm not advocating dealing one of our stars to clear room for Owens, but just tossing up a what-if. The coaches and Kenny have been expecting a big turnaround by those three this season, and a month into the season, it just hasn't happened. Hopefully these guys come up big in May.

UofCSoxFan
05-01-2008, 03:07 PM
In regards to playing Owens over TCQ:
I love it when people assume that a guy who was mediocre last year, couldn't beat a player out in spring training, and has never shown better numbers than the incumbent has shown when both are healthy, is a better player.

In regards to trading Thome or Konerko:
Thome has been fairly productive if you get by his poor average (which many of you can't); I don't know why everyone wants him out of here.
Konerko is a notoriously slow starter. He does this every year. Plus he is a 10-5 guy so you need his approval to trade him. He's not getting traded.

The best thing to improve this team would be to sign Crede long term now and trade Fields for a lead-off type 2B. Unfortunately, Boras doesn't sign conracts 5 months before his clients hit FA so that's not happening, and the Sox aren't trading their "Crede insurance plan" absent a Crede contract.

As of right now, I don't think Kenny has many moves in light of this. If we are in first in mid July, KW may roll the dice and trade Fields anyway, trying to win now, but we are very far away from that being a possibility right now.

Daver
05-01-2008, 05:02 PM
Simmer down, Bo!
I never said to sit Quentin and play Owens. I said to bring him up and find a way to get him in at lead-off...
I recommended moving Paulie or Dye to another team since they still might have a little trade value despite being as old and overpaid as they are.
By all means, keep Quentin in there while he's hot.
More realistically, a revolving door involving several players should get Owens some at bats.

If Jerry Owens is the answer, the question must be damn scary.


Jerry Owens is not very good at playing baseball.

turners56
05-01-2008, 05:05 PM
You NEED to start breathing my air!
Quentin has never done a thing other than one month...
He's playing well, but his success is also keeping back a player we need at the top of the order, which is Owens.
Owens can slap his way to a .270 average all he wants. I want him on base and causing trouble.
By the way, the Sox could have used one of those RBI today. Then again, they don't matter, right?

I don't think you know that Quentin played very well for Arizona in 2006, hitting 9 homers and driving in 32 in only 166 ABs, the guy is a special player, I know three months of playing good baseball doesn't make him a good player, but how long has Jerry Owens played well in the Majors? One month? Until Owens finds out how to work out some more walks, he's not an adequate leadoff man. I was low on Quentin in the beginning of the year too, but from his performance so far, the guy is here to stay.

guillen4life13
05-01-2008, 05:15 PM
In regards to playing Owens over TCQ:
I love it when people assume that a guy who was mediocre last year, couldn't beat a player out in spring training, and has never shown better numbers than the incumbent has shown when both are healthy, is a better player.

In regards to trading Thome or Konerko:
Thome has been fairly productive if you get by his poor average (which many of you can't); I don't know why everyone wants him out of here.
Konerko is a notoriously slow starter. He does this every year. Plus he is a 10-5 guy so you need his approval to trade him. He's not getting traded.

The best thing to improve this team would be to sign Crede long term now and trade Fields for a lead-off type 2B. Unfortunately, Boras doesn't sign conracts 5 months before his clients hit FA so that's not happening, and the Sox aren't trading their "Crede insurance plan" absent a Crede contract.

As of right now, I don't think Kenny has many moves in light of this. If we are in first in mid July, KW may roll the dice and trade Fields anyway, trying to win now, but we are very far away from that being a possibility right now.

Here's my problem with Thome:

G-I-D-P, & K!

spiffie
05-01-2008, 05:21 PM
Here's my problem with Thome:

G-I-D-P, & K!
Regarding GIDP, I wonder if certain posters have ever looked at who actually leads the leagues in this category the last few years.

This year David Ortiz leads in the AL. Last year Albert Pujols led in the NL in a tie with Carlos Lee. The year before Miguel Tejada led the AL. GIDP's happen to good players. Actually, they happen a lot to good players, since good players are usually in the middle of the lineup, with the order set up to try and get as many baserunners on in front of them as possible. And sadly that will lead to more GIDP's. It is a natural function of baseball.

Yes, Konerko is a slow man, but GIDP is much more a function of those around you. In 2003 he led the AL in that category. In front of him were Thomas, Ordonez, and Lee. They combined to be on base a ton, and were all slow as hell. In 2005, when he only hit into 10 DP's, he had Carl Everett batting in front of him more often than not, with his whopping .311 OBP. Then shockingly, when Jim Thome, a guy with a 400 OBP and no speed got in the lineup, Konerko started hitting into more DP's! Shocking! Totally his fault I'm sure! Damn softball player!

SoxGirl4Life
05-01-2008, 05:21 PM
Here's my problem with Thome:

G-I-D-P, & K!

Add Crede, AJ, Konerko and Dye to your list then.

oeo
05-01-2008, 05:27 PM
Here's my problem with Thome:

G-I-D-P, & K!

He also walks over 100 times a year. Swisher is going to do the same.

Strikeouts are a part of today's baseball...it's time we all get used to that fact and stop holding it against guys like Thome (and Fields...and eventually Swisher).

UofCSoxFan
05-01-2008, 05:37 PM
Here's my problem with Thome:

G-I-D-P, & K!

Here are some other letters for you:

HR, RBI, OPS.

You are correct, Jerry Owens will hit into less double plays than Thome and probably strike out less. So what? Thome will generate much more offense by year end.

Do people not realize that there is a big difference between playing every day and playing a few times a week? Anderson has done well, for the most part, this year playing 2 to 3 times a week. If you put him out there every day, where teams get a more complete book on him, where his body gets worn down more, and where he has more pressure, I guarantee the numbers will go down. The same can be said for Owens.

Don't believe me? Look to the great Pablo Ozuna who hit like .370 in a limited role most of one year but certainly is not an everyday player.

LoveYourSuit
05-01-2008, 05:52 PM
Ozzie likes to give people nights off very often, I think the revolving rotation of players is not a bad idea.

I would use a revolving system for the following players:

Thome
Konerko
Swisher
Dye
Quentin
Owens

All of the above to me will compose your top 5 of order on every given night. Cabrera should become a fixture in the 8th or 9th hole.

Everyone will have a day off every 5 games, which is not a bad thing:

Example

Line up 1 (day off Quentin)

Owens CF
Swisher LF
Thome DH
Kokerko 1B
Dye RF


Line up 2 (day off Owens)

Swisher CF
Quentin LF
Thome DH
Kokerko 1B
Dye RF

Line up 3 (day off Thome)

Owens CF
Swisher 1B
Quentin LF
Konerko DH
Dye RF


Line up 4 (day off Konerko)

Owens CF
Swisher 1B
Thome DH
Dye RF
Quentin LF

Line up 5 (day off Dye)

Owens CF
Swisher RF
Thome DH
Konerko 1B
Quentin LF

Line up 6 (day off Swisher)

Owens CF
Quentin LF
Thome DH
Konerko 1B
Dye RF

Offcourse, Injuries and match ups will dictate who gets a night off. But in a week of 6 games everyone playing in at least 5 of them is not a bad thing (Dye, Konerko, Thome are not 150 game ball players any more)

Daver
05-01-2008, 06:03 PM
Ozzie likes to give people nights off very often, I think the revolving rotation of players is not a bad idea.

I would use a revolving system for the following players:

Thome
Konerko
Swisher
Dye
Quentin
Owens

All of the above to me will compose your top 5 of order on every given night. Cabrera should become a fixture in the 8th or 9th hole.

Everyone will have a day off every 5 games, which is not a bad thing:

Example

Line up 1 (day off Quentin)

Owens CF
Swisher LF
Thome DH
Kokerko 1B
Dye RF


Line up 2 (day off Owens)

Swisher CF
Quentin LF
Thome DH
Kokerko 1B
Dye RF

Line up 3 (day off Thome)

Owens CF
Swisher 1B
Quentin LF
Konerko DH
Dye RF


Line up 4 (day off Konerko)

Owens CF
Swisher 1B
Thome DH
Dye RF
Quentin LF

Line up 5 (day off Dye)

Owens CF
Swisher RF
Thome DH
Konerko 1B
Quentin LF

Line up 6 (day off Swisher)

Owens CF
Quentin LF
Thome DH
Konerko 1B
Dye RF

Offcourse, Injuries and match ups will dictate who gets a night off. But in a week of 6 games everyone playing in at least 5 of them is not a bad thing (Dye, Konerko, Thome are not 150 game ball players any more)

The problem is the fact that Jerry Owens can't play center field.

UofCSoxFan
05-01-2008, 06:15 PM
I really dislike moving TCQ between 2nd, 3rd, and 5th. Baseball players are beings of routine. This would surely hurt him.

Look at the Twins, when they rest Mauer they actually bat Redmond (or whoever there backup is this year) at the 3 or 4 hole, because they try to minimize the impact on the rest of the lineup.

I think its WAAAY to early to give up on Cabrera in the 2 hole. He's been great there for years. I'm not confident Swisher would be a good 2 hole guy either, high OBP aside. With Owens in the lineup I'd move him down to 6 or 7.

Giving a starter a day off every day means you never have your A lineup in. It's an interesting thought, have 7 of 8 or 6 of 8 "A team" players in everyday, but I rather give most top players a day off at once, and be at a disadvantage 1 day in 6 than be at a sligh disadvantage every day of the year. I don't know about you, but I don't like my studs playing 80% of season if they are healthy enough to play more.

LoveYourSuit
05-01-2008, 06:23 PM
The problem is the fact that Jerry Owens can't play center field.


He's not as bad as people make it sound he is.

His arm is crap, but that can be said about many OFs playing baseball today.

LoveYourSuit
05-01-2008, 06:29 PM
Giving a starter a day off every day means you never have your A lineup in. It's an interesting thought, have 7 of 8 or 6 of 8 "A team" players in everyday, but I rather give most top players a day off at once, and be at a disadvantage 1 day in 6 than be at a sligh disadvantage every day of the year. I don't know about you, but I don't like my studs playing 80% of season if they are healthy enough to play more.


80% is what Dye, Thome, & now Konerko appear to be. At least Dye and Thome are a guarantee 15 day trip to the DL every year. You also don't want to burn out Quentin since he's coming back from arm surgery. Owens is another guy who cannot handles the load of 150+ games either.


Ozzie loves to keeps guys fresh and healthy and will use his bench unlike many AL managers. We do get critical about him benching people too often but let's remember that formual was the reason we were a very healthy team in the post season of '05.

Daver
05-01-2008, 06:56 PM
He's not as bad as people make it sound he is.



You're wrong, I have a dog that could play center better than Owens.

He makes up for his pus arm by getting terrible reads off the bat, and taking poor routes. He is not a good enough baseball player to play left against a team of all left handed hitters, he has 1 tool, and he doesn't use it well.

sox1970
05-01-2008, 07:04 PM
Owens and Fields are both in the Charlotte lineup tonight, so it appears they'll carry Adam Russell in the Toronto series.

They're just going to have to stick with the regular lineup and hopefully they'll start clicking. They'll be facing a long string of right-handed starters starting Friday, so it's time for Thome to get going.

UofCSoxFan
05-01-2008, 09:40 PM
In my three years on this site, this may be the dumbest thread I have ever read.

Owens at 2nd Base? He's a ****ing left handed outfielder!!! Even if he was right handed (or could learn) 2b isn't exactly the easiest position to learn. That doulbe play pivot and feed is very awkward even for someone growing up playing ss. It often takes a long-time to adjust.

And again, why does everyone want to proclaim Dye, Konerko, and Thome done??? We are a month into the season and these guys are all historically slow starters. They may all be on their decline, but they still have a lot more to offer than any other option.

And Nada Surf, yes batting average is an overrated stat. On-base percentage is much more indicative of the success of a speed guy and OPS is much more indicative of a power hitter. Otherwise Juan Pierre might be, you know, considered good.

I actually hope fans from other teams don't stumble on this thread. It is nothing short of embarassing.

NADA SURF
05-01-2008, 10:44 PM
Horrible idea. Owens is THE WORST PLAYER OF ALL OF THEM (Dye, Konerko, Thome, Swisher, Quentin) that you contend belong in a revolving door. Instability in a lineup (as we have seen in the past) is also a horrible answer.

Minus a trade, this move would not bode well for the Sox, and no one is trading on May 1, and even if the Sox did pull off a trade of one of their high-caliber hitters, you would hope they'd get a leadoff man in return, which would nullify the Owens situation, anyway.
I don't know what your problem is with Owens, but you can mark my words that when he gets his first full season --wherever that is--he'll hit about .275 with 75 steals....
I'd love to see him at the top of our order making our Nos.2 and 3 hitters much better.

champagne030
05-01-2008, 11:07 PM
You're wrong, I have a dog that could play center better than Owens.

He makes up for his pus arm by getting terrible reads off the bat, and taking poor routes. He is not a good enough baseball player to play left against a team of all left handed hitters, he has 1 tool, and he doesn't use it well.

:nod: There might be a stray cat that plays better CF than Owens.

FedEx227
05-01-2008, 11:14 PM
I don't know what your problem is with Owens, but you can mark my words that when he gets his first full season --wherever that is--he'll hit about .275 with 75 steals....
I'd love to see him at the top of our order making our Nos.2 and 3 hitters much better.

75 steals?

If Chone Figgins, Carl Crawford, Joey Gathright, Brian Roberts, Juan Pierre, Hanley Ramirez and Jimmy Rollins have never hit the 70 SB plateau I don't think Jerry Owens will. Sorry to burst your bubble.

75 steals is Jose Reyes monster year numbers... I'm not about to put Owens in the Reyes category... sorry.

NADA SURF
05-01-2008, 11:17 PM
The problem is the fact that Jerry Owens can't play center field.
Put him in left...
He didn't look too bad to me in CF last year, anyway.

NADA SURF
05-01-2008, 11:21 PM
75 steals?

If Chone Figgins, Carl Crawford, Joey Gathright, Brian Roberts, Juan Pierre, Hanley Ramirez and Jimmy Rollins have never hit the 70 SB plateau I don't think Jerry Owens will. Sorry to burst your bubble.

75 steals is Jose Reyes monster year numbers... I'm not about to put Owens in the Reyes category... sorry.
It would depend on the type of manager he has, but Ozzie let Podsednik run crazy and he'd do the same with Owens...
Get in line with the guys that will be applauding me for accurately predicting Crede's 30 homers and 100 RBI at the end of this season.

FedEx227
05-01-2008, 11:28 PM
It would depend on the type of manager he has, but Ozzie let Podsednik run crazy and he'd do the same with Owens...
Get in line with the guys that will be applauding me for accurately predicting Crede's 30 homers and 100 RBI at the end of this season.

Gee, I thought it was May 1st. Nevermind, silly me. Chipper Jones hitting .410... FINALLY sometime breaks Williams' mark, congrats Jones. Also did you hear Chase Utley hit 66 home runs this year... what a monster.

But seriously, there's a big difference between the guys I mentioned and Jerry Owens, they all are on base A LOT more than him, thus have more opportunities to run, yet still find themselves quite far from 70 steals.

Chone Figgins is managed by Mike Scioscia, who is largely regarded as the most aggressive manager in terms of stealing in the league... however Figgins hasn't gotten near 70 in quite some time.

WhiteSox5187
05-01-2008, 11:36 PM
Gee, I thought it was May 1st. Nevermind, silly me. Chipper Jones hitting .410... FINALLY sometime breaks Williams' mark, congrats Jones. Also did you hear Chase Utley hit 66 home runs this year... what a monster.

But seriously, there's a big difference between the guys I mentioned and Jerry Owens, they all are on base A LOT more than him, thus have more opportunities to run, yet still find themselves quite far from 70 steals.

Chone Figgins is managed by Mike Scioscia, who is largely regarded as the most aggressive manager in terms of stealing in the league... however Figgins hasn't gotten near 70 in quite some time.
Here's my two cents: didn't Pods have something like forty stolen bases before he got hurt in '05? IF Owens could on at the same rate that Pods did in '05 and IF (unlike Pods) Owens could stay healthy the whole season, I don't think seventy stolen bases is out of the question. However in order for that to happen the two prior factors would have to be met and I don't know if Owens could meet that criteria. However he certainly has the speed to steal seventy and I think he has enough of a good read off of pitchers to do that. But I don't think he can get on base enough or stay healthy for long enough to do that.

FedEx227
05-01-2008, 11:48 PM
Here's my two cents: didn't Pods have something like forty stolen bases before he got hurt in '05? IF Owens could on at the same rate that Pods did in '05 and IF (unlike Pods) Owens could stay healthy the whole season, I don't think seventy stolen bases is out of the question. However in order for that to happen the two prior factors would have to be met and I don't know if Owens could meet that criteria. However he certainly has the speed to steal seventy and I think he has enough of a good read off of pitchers to do that. But I don't think he can get on base enough or stay healthy for long enough to do that.

Here are the last guys to get 70 steals in the past 10 seasons, either league:

Jose Reyes (2007)
Scott Podsednik (2004)

That's RARE company, rare company that none of the guys I mentioned in my first post even sniff. I'm sorry but you're not going to convince me that Jerry Owens has better speed than a Carl Crawford, or better awareness than Chone Figgins or Brian Roberts.

Even at Owens' pace last year which was 32 SB in 93 games, he'd only have 55 with 160 ABs (Reyes' 2007 output). 55 isn't 75.

NADA SURF
05-01-2008, 11:48 PM
I saw that Owens hit .267 in his rookie season last year...
Could that be a misprint?
The way you all talk about him, it must have been .167, right?

FedEx227
05-01-2008, 11:50 PM
I saw that Owens hit .267 in his rookie season last year...
Could that be a misprint?
The way you all talk about him, it must have been .167, right?

I saw that Owens had an on-base percentage of .324 in his rookie season last year...

Could that be a misprint or is that an awful number for a "supposed" prototypical lead-off hitter?

I hate judging numbers in a non-full season but if you're going to go ahead and do it, let's go.

.324 for a leadoff hitter is putrid.

Craig Grebeck
05-01-2008, 11:52 PM
I saw that Owens hit .267 in his rookie season last year...
Could that be a misprint?
The way you all talk about him, it must have been .167, right?
.267 with no slugging or OBP is worthless.

WhiteSox5187
05-01-2008, 11:56 PM
Here are the last guys to get 70 steals in the past 10 seasons, either league:

Jose Reyes (2007)
Scott Podsednik (2004)

That's RARE company, rare company that none of the guys I mentioned in my first post even sniff. I'm sorry but you're not going to convince me that Jerry Owens has better speed than a Carl Crawford, or better awareness than Chone Figgins or Brian Roberts.

Even at Owens' pace last year which was 32 SB in 93 games, he'd only have 55 with 160 ABs (Reyes' 2007 output).
I think that part of the reason you don't see guys get close to seventy is simply because the stolen base has really become a lost art, especially in the American league. People just don't put a whole lot of value in it anymore and would rather have a team with guys that get on a lot and wait to be driven in. Plus I think managers are hesistant to risk some of their best players (Roberts and Crawford are the best players on their team respectively) getting injured in stealing a base. But right now it pays to hit HRs, if hte market paid for SBs you'd see guys like Roberts, Figgins and Crawford stealing more.

Like I said I think that Owens has as much speed and awareness and ability to read pitchers as Pods did, if he could stay healthy and get on as much as Pods did for a full season, I think he'd have a shot at seventy.

WhiteSox5187
05-01-2008, 11:57 PM
.267 with no slugging or OBP is worthless.
Agreed, but I don't look for slugging out of my leadoff guy. Although we've disagreed over that many times.

FedEx227
05-02-2008, 12:08 AM
Agreed, but I don't look for slugging out of my leadoff guy. Although we've disagreed over that many times.

Not home runs, but doubles and triples are VERY good for your leadoff hitter.

I do agree though, I'd rather look at OBP or rather OPS before just purely slugging I don't need/want a Soriano leading off.

PalehosePlanet
05-02-2008, 12:10 AM
I really don't understand why people are pining for Owens grounding out to 2nd base every at bat.

You're forgetting the soft line-out to left field, my friend. You know where the LF'er is playing six feet off the line and about a hundred feet behind 3rd and catches the ball in his tracks?

Owens is right where he should be: AAA. If someone does get hurt for an extended period of time and Owens has to play a lot, we're in trouble.

TomBradley72
05-02-2008, 12:10 AM
I saw that Owens had an on-base percentage of .324 in his rookie season last year...

Could that be a misprint or is that an awful number for a "supposed" prototypical lead-off hitter?

I hate judging numbers in a non-full season but if you're going to go ahead and do it, let's go.

.324 for a leadoff hitter is putrid.

True enough.

But when assessing a young player...you can't assume his overall abilities stay 'static". Owens put on 10 lbs of muscle in the offseason, and seems to be working on his OBP..across 67 ABs at AAA, he's hitting .299 with a .390 OBP (10 BBs). You look at when our offense struggles or is inconsistent (2003-04, 2nd half of '06, all of '07), it's when we DON'T have a speed/catalyst guy like when Pods was healthy and doing well.

Based on how we're doing on offense right now and that Owens is healthy and seems to be improved over last year, I think he belongs on this roster instead of Ramirez (who will be great some day, but needs to play every day), and should play a few times a week vs. RHs. At worst, he'd provide a LH stick off the bench and a good pinch runner.

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 01:17 AM
I saw that Owens had an on-base percentage of .324 in his rookie season last year...

Could that be a misprint or is that an awful number for a "supposed" prototypical lead-off hitter?

I hate judging numbers in a non-full season but if you're going to go ahead and do it, let's go.

.324 for a leadoff hitter is putrid.
I also noted that it was his rookie season.
That can't be right?

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 01:21 AM
Agreed, but I don't look for slugging out of my leadoff guy. Although we've disagreed over that many times.
You'll never get Grebeck to understand that.
Soriano is likely his idea of a great lead-off guy.
He doesn't think the RBI is important, either.
He did admit to having a brain aneurysm, though, from this.

Craig Grebeck
05-02-2008, 08:04 AM
You'll never get Grebeck to understand that.
Soriano is likely his idea of a great lead-off guy.
He doesn't think the RBI is important, either.
He did admit to having a brain aneurysm, though, from this.
No, I just don't think lead-off hitter is a position. Just get on base.

Eddo144
05-02-2008, 11:27 AM
Agreed, but I don't look for slugging out of my leadoff guy. Although we've disagreed over that many times.
That's a strange attitude. A high slugging percentage can only help the team. This is akin to saying "I don't look for a low E.R.A. from my 7th-inning setup man."

voodoochile
05-02-2008, 11:39 AM
That's a strange attitude. A high slugging percentage can only help the team. This is akin to saying "I don't look for a low E.R.A. from my 7th-inning setup man."

Not really, slg% in a leadoff hitter is a bonus, not a requirement.

Eddo144
05-02-2008, 05:02 PM
Not really, slg% in a leadoff hitter is a bonus, not a requirement.
Not to start a big argument, because I'm new to posting here, but I don't understand this philosophy. Baseball, unlike any of the other major sports, is an individual-vs-individual (hitter-vs-pitcher) battle. All other things equal, a higher slugging percentage is always better than a lower one, so the hitter with the better slugging percentage will produce more. Just because they're in a certain spot in the lineup doesn't change the dynamic of the game. Their goal is to advance as many bases as possible against the pitcher. Slugging percentage measures the average number of bases reached in an at-bat.
For example, compare last year's numbers for the two potential leadoff hitters for the Sox: Owens and Swisher. I'll even add in stolen bases to the "amount of bases reached per at-bat" (I'll call it AdjSLG) figure, as to allow Owens's speed to factor in.

Swisher (.455 SLG): 245 Total Bases, 3 Stolen Bases, 539 AB
Owens (.312 SLG): 111 Total Bases, 32 Stolen Bases, 356 AB

AdjSLG:
Swisher: .461 (248/539)
Owens: .402 (143/356)

On average, the higher slugging guy will move farther along the diamond before the next player's at-bat is over. It's not much of a stretch to see how this would lead to more runs.

spiffie
05-02-2008, 05:15 PM
Not to start a big argument, because I'm new to posting here, but I don't understand this philosophy.
Just wait until someone tries to explain to you how a triple is better than a home run.

Eddo144
05-02-2008, 05:21 PM
Just wait until someone tries to explain to you how a triple is better than a home run.
But it's so much more exciting!

TomBradley72
05-02-2008, 05:24 PM
Swisher (.455 SLG): 245 Total Bases, 3 Stolen Bases, 539 AB
Owens (.312 SLG): 111 Total Bases, 32 Stolen Bases, 356 AB

AdjSLG:
Swisher: .461 (248/539)
Owens: .402 (143/356)

On average, the higher slugging guy will move farther along the diamond before the next player's at-bat is over. It's not much of a stretch to see how this would lead to more runs.

I like your approach...but Swisher's SLG is only .344 this year...could be a slump or could be a function of having a different "approach" as a lead off hitter vs. as a "middle of the order" hitter. His OBP is consistent with what he did last year for the A's.

Owens SLG is .403 at AAA...not sure how much of that would translate to the majors...but he seems to be improved from last year (last year it was .366 at AAA).

Eddo144
05-02-2008, 05:41 PM
I like your approach...but Swisher's SLG is only .344 this year...could be a slump or could be a function of having a different "approach" as a lead off hitter vs. as a "middle of the order" hitter. His OBP is consistent with what he did last year for the A's.

Owens SLG is .403 at AAA...not sure how much of that would translate to the majors...but he seems to be improved from last year (last year it was .366 at AAA).
Thanks, and I used last years to avoid the small sample size for Swisher (and the zero sample size for Owens!) from this year.

Going one step further, let's add walks and HBP in (since these are one base advanced). Remember, these get added to the denominator as well. Also of note: I'm not counting sacrifices, these only add to PA.

Swisher: 110 BB+HBP. 248 TB+SB. 649 AB+BB+HBP.
Owens: 30 BB+HBP. 143 TB+SB. 386 AB+BB+HBP.

AdjSLG (2007):
Swisher: .552 (358/649)
Owens: .448 (173/386)

And, using the same formula for 2008's numbers:
Swisher (AL): .478 (56/117)
Owens (AAA): .545 (32/77) (from baseball-reference, not sure how accurate their minor league stats are)

So this year, Owens has a higher raw AdjSLG, though I have no idea how it would translate to the American League from AAA.

If we take the exact middle between the Owens's 2007-2008 numbers to project how AAA converts to the AL (a highly suspect method, I know, but crude and easy), we get and AdjSLG of .497 for this year.

Here are Swisher's career figures:
2005: .509
2006: .575
2007: .552
2008: .478

Judging from Swisher's numbers, we can probably make the assumption his AdjSLG will move up to fall more in line with his career numbers. Also of note: Swisher's AdjSLG for both 2006 and 2007 are better than what Owens is putting up in AAA this year.

russ99
05-02-2008, 05:47 PM
Thanks, and I used last years to avoid the small sample size for Swisher (and the zero sample size for Owens!) from this year.

Going one step further, let's add walks and HBP in (since these are one base advanced). Remember, these get added to the denominator as well. Also of note: I'm not counting sacrifices, these only add to PA.

Swisher: 110 BB+HBP. 248 TB+SB. 649 AB+BB+HBP.
Owens: 30 BB+HBP. 143 TB+SB. 386 AB+BB+HBP.

AdjSLG (2007):
Swisher: .552 (358/649)
Owens: .448 (173/386)

And, using the same formula for 2008's numbers:
Swisher (AL): .478 (56/117)
Owens (AAA): .545 (32/77) (from baseball-reference, not sure how accurate their minor league stats are)

So this year, Owens has a higher raw AdjSLG, though I have no idea how it would translate to the American League from AAA.

If we take the exact middle between the Owens's 2007-2008 numbers to project how AAA converts to the AL (a highly suspect method, I know, but crude and easy), we get and AdjSLG of .497 for this year.

Here are Swisher's career figures:
2005: .509
2006: .575
2007: .552
2008: .478

Judging from Swisher's numbers, we can probably make the assumption his AdjSLG will move up to fall more in line with his career numbers. Also of note: Swisher's AdjSLG for both 2006 and 2007 are better than what Owens is putting up in AAA this year.

Using slugging percentage (when even after you adjust it is based on total bases and heavily weighted towards extra-base hitters) is a poor measuring stick when you're talking about a homers/doubles guy vs. a singles slap hitter.

Owens is rarely, if ever, going to get many extra base hits, so you've purposely tilted things in Swisher's favor (almost 2-1) in a way where even if Owens steals 100 bases - which would have a profound effect on the team's overall offense, it wouldn't dent Swisher's overall numbers.

How about runs scored + runs created? Wouldn't that be a better way to measure these two very different-style hitters? Also Owens has played a half-year, Swisher has played over 3. How about scaling the numbers so we can see where Nick was after his first 3 months on the majors...

wsgdf
05-02-2008, 05:48 PM
Don't forget to subtract the 8 times Owens was caught stealing last year.

voodoochile
05-02-2008, 05:53 PM
Not to start a big argument, because I'm new to posting here, but I don't understand this philosophy. Baseball, unlike any of the other major sports, is an individual-vs-individual (hitter-vs-pitcher) battle. All other things equal, a higher slugging percentage is always better than a lower one, so the hitter with the better slugging percentage will produce more. Just because they're in a certain spot in the lineup doesn't change the dynamic of the game. Their goal is to advance as many bases as possible against the pitcher. Slugging percentage measures the average number of bases reached in an at-bat.
For example, compare last year's numbers for the two potential leadoff hitters for the Sox: Owens and Swisher. I'll even add in stolen bases to the "amount of bases reached per at-bat" (I'll call it AdjSLG) figure, as to allow Owens's speed to factor in.

Swisher (.455 SLG): 245 Total Bases, 3 Stolen Bases, 539 AB
Owens (.312 SLG): 111 Total Bases, 32 Stolen Bases, 356 AB

AdjSLG:
Swisher: .461 (248/539)
Owens: .402 (143/356)

On average, the higher slugging guy will move farther along the diamond before the next player's at-bat is over. It's not much of a stretch to see how this would lead to more runs.

No arguments here, but my point was that OBP is more valuable in the leadoff hitter than slg%. If you can find 9 guys to bat with OBP .380, SLG% .450 OPS .830, great, but odds are you are going to have to pick and choose somewhere. I don't want to see Owens leading off over Swisher in part because I value the extra power Swisher provides, but mostly because I don't think Owens will ever be as good at reaching base as Swisher. I hope Owens proves me wrong too...

Eddo144
05-02-2008, 05:57 PM
Using slugging percentage (when even after you adjust it is based on total bases and heavily weighted towards extra-base hitters) is a poor measuring stick when you're talking about a homers/doubles guy vs. a singles slap hitter.

Owens is rarely, if ever, going to get many extra base hits, so you've purposely tilted things in Swisher's favor (almost 2-1) in a way where even if Owens steals 100 bases - which would have a profound effect on the team's overall offense, it wouldn't dent Swisher's overall numbers.
That's exactly my point. A homers/doubles guy is inherently much more valuable than a slap hitter, even if the slap hitter were to steal 100 bases in a season. The best way to judge a hitter is independent of the lineup around him, and the best way to do so is to show how good he is at advancing bases on his own. Slugging percentage is a good way to do that. I only helped Owens by including steals.

Eddo144
05-02-2008, 06:00 PM
No arguments here, but my point was that OBP is more valuable in the leadoff hitter than slg%. If you can find 9 guys to bat with OBP .380, SLG% .450 OPS .830, great, but odds are you are going to have to pick and choose somewhere. I don't want to see Owens leading off over Swisher in part because I value the extra power Swisher provides, but mostly because I don't think Owens will ever be as good at reaching base as Swisher. I hope Owens proves me wrong too...
Well then, we are in 100% agreement. :D:

Realistically, I understand what you're saying, that there's a trade-off between skills, that you can't find a whole of guys who have good SLG and OBP and speed and defense. I think I read too much into your initial comment, interpreting it to mean that you would avoid putting a high SLG guy at leadoff, when you really meant that you'd rather get a player who has a high OBP.

Apologies.

TomBradley72
05-02-2008, 06:01 PM
mostly because I don't think Owens will ever be as good at reaching base as Swisher. I hope Owens proves me wrong too...

I don't disagree....but Owens does seem to be improving...his OBP is up to .390 so far this year (10 walks), last year it was .361...small sample size...so only time will tell.

voodoochile
05-02-2008, 06:08 PM
I don't disagree....but Owens does seem to be improving...his OBP is up to .390 so far this year (10 walks), last year it was .361...small sample size...so only time will tell.

:hawk
"Where's he gonna play?"

No seriously I would love it if all these "prospects" actually developed if for no other reason than I am sick of hearing how the Sox have no young talent to trade that's worth anything. I mean think of the fun if BA, Richar, Owens, Fields, Ramirez and Quentin all develop into solid MLB players. Man that would just suck suck suck as much as anything has ever sucked. :tongue: