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View Full Version : "Hit and Run" vs. "Run and Hit" Explained....sort of.


KingXerxes
04-28-2008, 11:08 PM
:hawk

"Yessir - the old run and hit got 'em from first to third on that single."

:DJ

"Yep partner. I'm glad they used the run and hit versus the hit and run, because otherwise we'd hve a mess on the basepaths."

:hawk

"Right you are. You know a lot of fans out there aren't familiar with the difference of a hit and run as opposed to the run and hit - but that's to be expected because they haven't been around this game for the past 67 years like me."

:DJ

"That's right again Hawk. A run and hit is when a player runs while the pitch is being delivered, and if the pitch isn't put into play, that runner is gunning to steal the base anyway. While during a hit and run, the player will stay put until the ball is actually put into play."

FIVE MINUTES LATER

:hawk

"Ya know DJ - we've just received an email ask what is the difference between our definition of a hit and run versus every single play that takes base when a runner is on base. Let me explain.

When a manager calls for a hit and run, the runner on base will wait to see if the ball is put into play before he will start running for the next base, now while this may seem to be a common sense way of playing the game anyhow - it's called a hit and run. In a non hit and run, the runner on base will wait to see if the ball is put into play before he will start running for the next base - but in this type of case the manager has not signaled for a hit and run."

:DJ

"Right once again partner."

Dan Mega
04-28-2008, 11:17 PM
:rolling::bandance:

btrain929
04-28-2008, 11:21 PM
Wow. Is that really right? I was under the impression that...

A hit and run is where the runner is stealing the base/off on the pitch and the batter is swinging no matter where the pitch is to put it in play via line drive or ground ball (unless in the dirt, then the runner has the base stolen).

A run and hit is where the runner is stealing the base/off with the pitch, but the batter is not obligated to swing at the pitch if he doesn't like it. If it's a cookie, then he tees off. If it's a ball, then he takes it and hopefully the runner is successful in his SB attempt.

I've never heard of a hit and run being described where the runner runs only if it's put into play....

:scratch::scratch::scratch:

KingXerxes
04-28-2008, 11:22 PM
Wow. Is that really right? I was under the impression that...

A hit and run is where the runner is stealing the base/off on the pitch and the batter is swinging no matter where the pitch is to put it in play (unless in the dirt, then the runner has the base stole).

A run and hit is where the runner is stealing the base/off with the pitch, but the batter is not obligated to swing at the pitch if he doesn't like it.

I've never heard of a hit and run being described where the runner runs only if its put into play....

:scratch::scratch::scratch:


My apologies - I should have qualified the thread. It is a somewhat loose interpretation of an explanation given in the 9th or 10th of today's broadcast.

Isn't your "run and hit" definition oddly close to a straight steal? Maybe it's just semantics - but you should have heard the two of them today.

BRDSR
04-28-2008, 11:23 PM
Wow. Is that really right? I was under the impression that...

A hit and run is where the runner is stealing the base/off on the pitch and the batter is swinging no matter where the pitch is to put it in play (unless in the dirt, then the runner has the base stole).

A run and hit is where the runner is stealing the base/off with the pitch, but the batter is not obligated to swing at the pitch if he doesn't like it.

I've never heard of a hit and run being described where the runner runs only if its put into play....

:scratch::scratch::scratch:

Is this whole post supposed to be in teal?

Original post is the best this board has seen in a loooooong time. Kudos.

btrain929
04-28-2008, 11:27 PM
Is this whole post supposed to be in teal?

Original post is the best this board has seen in a loooooong time. Kudos.

Well maybe I'm confused. Were Hawk and DJ serious with that definition of the difference between the hit and run and run and hit? I'm not saying I have all the knowledge that Hawk has, but I've never heard of what they are talking about.

Or maybe that whole segment was a joke and I'm reading too much into it.

Yep, I'm confused.

btrain929
04-28-2008, 11:28 PM
My apologies - I should have qualified the thread. It is a somewhat loose interpretation of an explanation given in the 9th or 10th of today's broadcast.

Isn't your "run and hit" definition oddly close to a straight steal? Maybe it's just semantics - but you should have heard the two of them today.

And yes, it's very close to a straight steal. That's why it's a RUN and hit (emphasis on the running part). For a hit and run, the emphasis is on the HIT (where the batter must/should make contact).

chisoxfanatic
04-28-2008, 11:28 PM
Well maybe I'm confused. Were Hawk and DJ serious with that definition of the difference between the hit and run and run and hit? I'm not saying I have all the knowledge that Hawk has, but I've never heard of what they are talking about.

Or maybe that whole segment was a joke and I'm reading too much into it.

Yep, I'm confused.
Welcome to the world of King Xerxes, where everything's to be taken with a grain of salt!

BRDSR
04-28-2008, 11:30 PM
Well maybe I'm confused. Were Hawk and DJ serious with that definition of the difference between the hit and run and run and hit? I'm not saying I have all the knowledge that Hawk has, but I've never heard of what they are talking about.

Or maybe that whole segment was a joke and I'm reading too much into it.

Yep, I'm confused.

LOL, I'm not sure. I live in the DC area, so I caught the Orioles broadcast on TV. I just assumed Hawk, in his senility, tried to explain a hit and run but didn't do a great job, and then Xerxes, in his infinite wit, made a great parody out of the whole thing. I thought it was a fantastic read.

KingXerxes
04-28-2008, 11:31 PM
The original post was about a very weak and stumbling explanation they gave during the game.

I've never really heard of anything but a "Hit and Run" until I encountered this dynamic duo.

KingXerxes
04-28-2008, 11:33 PM
LOL, I'm not sure. I live in the DC area, so I caught the Orioles broadcast on TV. I just assumed Hawk, in his senility, tried to explain a hit and run but didn't do a great job, and then Xerxes, in his infinite wit, made a great parody out of the whole thing. I thought it was a fantastic read.

Pretty close.

They gave an incredibly awkward explanation of the difference between and H&R vs. a R&H - with most of the credit for the lameness going to DJ. Again they just left me shaking my head.

KingXerxes
04-28-2008, 11:37 PM
And yes, it's very close to a straight steal. That's why it's a RUN and hit (emphasis on the running part). For a hit and run, the emphasis is on the HIT (where the batter must/should make contact).

Then a straight steal can only mean that the batter is instructed to take the pitch?

voodoochile
04-28-2008, 11:43 PM
btrain, do a forum search for "ask farmio" it may help your confusion.

Long time no read, KingX - you still got it...

StLSoxPride
04-28-2008, 11:45 PM
Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to catch the game tonight because it wasn't aired on WGN here in STL. However, this whole concept of a 'Run and Hit' really boggles my mind. If the batter has absolutley no obligation to take the pitch or to swing at it, how is it not merely a straight steal??? Someone please help me out here!:?::?::?:

btrain929
04-28-2008, 11:45 PM
Then a straight steal can only mean that the batter is instructed to take the pitch?

Well, a majority of the time, if you have a guy who is fast/steals a lot of bases, he has the green light/you don't tell him to steal. So in those scenarios, the batter doesn't know if/when he's stealing.

With a run and hit, the hitter knows he's going, and has the option of swinging. I wouldn't say that on a straight steal, a hitter ever has the take sign. But I WOULD say that if you're a smart hitter and you have a burner on 1st, it's in your best interest to take so you have a chance at hitting a man in with a man in scoring position.

Again, this is just based off of my baseball-playing career and what I've learned/been taught.

DSpivack
04-28-2008, 11:45 PM
The original post was about a very weak and stumbling explanation they gave during the game.

I've never really heard of anything but a "Hit and Run" until I encountered this dynamic duo.

A baseball sim I play, Baseball Mogul, has the option for stealing a base, to hit and run, or to run and hit.

KingXerxes
04-28-2008, 11:52 PM
Well, a majority of the time, if you have a guy who is fast/steals a lot of bases, he has the green light/you don't tell him to steal. So in those scenarios, the batter doesn't know if/when he's stealing.

With a run and hit, the hitter knows he's going, and has the option of swinging. I wouldn't say that on a straight steal, a hitter ever has the take sign. But I WOULD say that if you're a smart hitter and you have a burner on 1st, it's in your best interest to take so you have a chance at hitting a man in with a man in scoring position.

Again, this is just based off of my baseball-playing career and what I've learned/been taught.

So the difference of a "run and hit" vs. a straight steal is the batter's knowledge that the runner is taking off with no obligation to swing or not? If that is the case - and it may very well be - how can an announcer differentiate between the two and call it one or the other?

KingXerxes
04-28-2008, 11:56 PM
Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to catch the game tonight because it wasn't aired on WGN here in STL. However, this whole concept of a 'Run and Hit' really boggles my mind. If the batter has absolutley no obligation to take the pitch or to swing at it, how is it not merely a straight steal??? Someone please help me out here!:?::?::?:

StlSoxPride - I see this is your first post (unless you previously posted under different names). Welcome aboard if it's the primary.

I'm a bit confused myself, although the explanation given in this thread shows the possibility of a slight difference, I don't see how an announcer in the booth - or anyone watching could tell the difference between a straight steal and a run and hit.

Maybe I'm too old school - I still call your team down in St. Louis the Perfectos, but I've only ever known the Hit and Run and the Straight Steal.

btrain929
04-28-2008, 11:59 PM
So the difference of a "run and hit" vs. a straight steal is the batter's knowledge that the runner is taking off with no obligation to swing or not? If that is the case - and it may very well be - how can an announcer differentiate between the two and call it one or the other?

I don't think you can tell the difference....if you're watching the game/commentating on the game. In my opinion, if a run and hit is on, and the pitcher throws one right down the middle and the hitter belts a double in the gap, they'll say it was a hit and run, when maybe it wasn't.

I personally don't hear any radio/TV announcers say it was a run and hit because, you're right, they really don't know. From my experience, it's more of a term used in the dugout between the coaches and the players as supposed to someone observing/calling the game.

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 12:00 AM
btrain, do a forum search for "ask farmio" it may help your confusion.

Long time no read, KingX - you still got it...

Thanks voodoo, it's great to see an "oldtimer" again.

:-)

voodoochile
04-29-2008, 12:01 AM
StlSoxPride - I see this is your first post (unless you previously posted under different names). Welcome aboard if it's the primary.

I'm a bit confused myself, although the explanation given in this thread shows the possibility of a slight difference, I don't see how an announcer in the booth - or anyone watching could tell the difference between a straight steal and a run and hit.

Maybe I'm too old school - I still call your team down in St. Louis the Perfectos, but I've only ever known the Hit and Run and the Straight Steal.

That's because that's all there are, King. It's part of being cute to call it a run and hit (technically true because the run comes before the ball crosses the plate and thus before the possibility of a hit). But that's getting into semantics kind of like the fair/foul pole debate.

UofCSoxFan
04-29-2008, 12:04 AM
I like in how both those explanations they never described an actual hit an run, where the runner takes off, doesn't focus on getting a good jump but gets a head start as the pitch is delivered and the hitter tries to hit it on the ground through the whole of the covering IF.

The explanation of a run and hit seems like a steal but the batter doesn't have to take/purposely swing through the pitch to protect the runner but instead swings to make contact, like a conventional hit and run, but the difference is the runner focusses on getting a much better jump, not just a head start so he can steal successfully on a miss.

The explanation of the hit and run is terrible. The runner doesn't wait until the ball is hit to run. You don't need a sign for that, its just normal baseball. Its not a hit then run.

Hawk is getting senile so slowly that I'm not sure any of us will notice when it actually happens and DJ is too scared to ever contradict him.

Awesome.

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 12:05 AM
I don't think you can tell the difference....if you're watching the game/commentating on the game. In my opinion, if a run and hit is on, and the pitcher throws one right down the middle and the hitter belts a double in the gap, they'll say it was a hit and run, when maybe it wasn't.

I personally don't hear any radio/TV announcers say it was a run and hit because, you're right, they really don't know. From my experience, it's more of a term used in the dugout between the coaches and the players as supposed to someone observing/calling the game.

Which gave rise to my original post.

StLSoxPride
04-29-2008, 12:10 AM
So if this 'Run and Hit' concept truly exists, then there must be some distinction between a 'Run and Hit' and a straight steal, right??? However, based off of most of these replies there is no difference. In both situations the hitter is aware of the runners intentions and still has the freedom to do as he please during his at bat. I dont claim to know more about baseball than the average joe, but I feel like something just aint right here.

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 12:12 AM
That's because that's all there are, King. It's part of being cute to call it a run and hit (technically true because the run comes before the ball crosses the plate and thus before the possibility of a hit). But that's getting into semantics kind of like the fair/foul pole debate.

Other aggravations:

Mentioned by voodoo - The Fair Pole - No, it's a Foul Pole.

Guys who say "He got 6 RBI last night" - No, he got 6 RBIs last night.

The phonetic pronunciations of Latin names that Jon Miller is constantly trying to do.

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 12:13 AM
So if this 'Run and Hit' concept truly exists, then there must be some distinction between a 'Run and Hit' and a straight steal, right??? However, based off of most of these replies there is no difference. In both situations the hitter is aware of the runners intentions and still has the freedom to do as he please during his at bat. I dont claim to know more about baseball than the average joe, but I feel like something just aint right here.

I'm in your camp.

How did the Perfectos do tonight - or don't you watch them?

UofCSoxFan
04-29-2008, 12:15 AM
So if this 'Run and Hit' concept truly exists, then there must be some distinction between a 'Run and Hit' and a straight steal, right??? However, based off of most of these replies there is no difference. In both situations the hitter is aware of the runners intentions and still has the freedom to do as he please during his at bat. I dont claim to know more about baseball than the average joe, but I feel like something just aint right here.

I mean in college we had a rule that with 0 strikes you'd swing and miss on purpose to protect the runner by not letting the catcher step up and catcht the ball, unless the pitch was in the dirt. This is b/c you still had 2 strikes to play with, on a straight steal. With one strike (or two strikes) you could swing away if the pitch was there, since asking a player to take a hittable pitch for strike 2 was unreasonable. This one or two strike approach seems like a run and hit whereas the 0 strike approach would be a straight steal. That's the only distinction I can see but I'm not sure I'm interpreting this right.

UofCSoxFan
04-29-2008, 12:18 AM
Other aggravations:

Mentioned by voodoo - The Fair Pole - No, it's a Foul Pole.

Guys who say "He got 6 RBI last night" - No, he got 6 RBIs last night.

The phonetic pronunciations of Latin names that Jon Miller is constantly trying to do.

Technically speaking, 6 RBI is correct, even though 6 RBIs may sound better.

I hitter gets six Runs Batted In not six Run Batted Ins

StLSoxPride
04-29-2008, 12:23 AM
No King, im not a big cardinals guy, and i wasnt aware of the whole perfectos thing either, i might have to try using that next time i encounter some fans.

StLSoxPride
04-29-2008, 12:26 AM
i dont mean to get technical u of c, but if a hitter gets 1 Run Batted In, and another gets 6 Runs Batted In, that extra s has to go somewhere and RSBI doesnt flow off the tongue very well

btrain929
04-29-2008, 12:30 AM
Well, a majority of the time, if you have a guy who is fast/steals a lot of bases, he has the green light/you don't tell him to steal. So in those scenarios, the batter doesn't know if/when he's stealing.

With a run and hit, the hitter knows he's going, and has the option of swinging. I wouldn't say that on a straight steal, a hitter ever has the take sign. But I WOULD say that if you're a smart hitter and you have a burner on 1st, it's in your best interest to take so you have a chance at hitting a man in with a man in scoring position.

Again, this is just based off of my baseball-playing career and what I've learned/been taught.

I'll change this part of my post. Typically, when you do a straight steal, it is with a burner, a guy who should have no problem stealing the next base. So, yes, it's understood that your going to take the pitch because 9/10 times, he will do it successfully and now you have a runner in scoring position and you have a chance to drive in a RBI.

You hardly see a straight steal with a guy of below average speed because that just wouldn't make sense. More times than not, he's going to be thrown out. Also, you will never see Konerko or Thome in a run and hit. You WILL see them in a hit and run though because they will be protected.

Now, times that you would use a run and hit? A guy with average speed (Carlos Lee, Carlos Quentin, Derrick Lee, etc). These guys have decent speed, and have a chance at beating a steal straight up. If the hitter puts it in play, even better.

Another time you could use it is if the pitcher does not have good control/somewhat wild that day. This way, if the batter has the option and sees its a slider waaaaaay outside, he's not going to swing because it's not a hit and run, it's a ball and now is ahead of the count, the runner has decent speed, and a catcher probably won't throw him out if he has to dive outside to catch the ball.

This all makes sense in my head, but I'm sure this all has done nothing but confuse the hell out of you guys LOL. If so, my apologies.

Nellie_Fox
04-29-2008, 12:30 AM
i dont mean to get technical u of c, but if a hitter gets 1 Run Batted In, and another gets 6 Runs Batted In, that extra s has to go somewhere and RSBI doesnt flow off the tongue very wellNo it doesn't have to go somewhere; it's an "initialism," which just uses the first letter of each word. Runs Batted In.

You don't say MPHS or MSPH when talking about more than one mile per hour, do you?

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 12:31 AM
I mean in college we had a rule that with 0 strikes you'd swing and miss on purpose to protect the runner by not letting the catcher step up and catcht the ball, unless the pitch was in the dirt. This is b/c you still had 2 strikes to play with, on a straight steal. With one strike (or two strikes) you could swing away if the pitch was there, since asking a player to take a hittable pitch for strike 2 was unreasonable. This one or two strike approach seems like a run and hit whereas the 0 strike approach would be a straight steal. That's the only distinction I can see but I'm not sure I'm interpreting this right.

This whole thread has turned into a watery gruel of distinction at best. Let's go to an expert on the matter:

:farmer

"Well it's all very easy to differentiate......you know that's a funny word - differentiate. Not funny like a clown, to borrow a phrase off of Joe Pesci in Goodfellas - met Joe Pesci in New York once, didn't see him laughing - but funny in the sense of being a bit odd. It sounds a lot like differential, not meaning the difference between more than one thing or things, but the differential on a car. I had differential problems with my 1968 Belvedere convertible - it had a 383 four barrel - not 383 as in batting average, because that would have a decimal in front of it - not a period - not meaning an era of time - but the punctuation mark period....period. Well anyway I was cruising down Interstate 40 with U.L. Washington once, and I put the top down at about 75 miles per hour - all you kids at home don't speed - when his whole box of toothpicks flew out of his shirt pocket. Well U.L. told me to slow down - something he never did on the basepaths during run and hits and hit and runs and straight steals, anyway I locked up the brakes - again kids you should never do this at home - not meaning that you can put the brakes on your house, but not putting them on in the left lane of I-40 at 75 miles per hour - that's about 125 kilometers per metric hour in Canada - I think a metric hour has one hundred meter-minutes with each meter-minute having ten milli-seconds, or one deca-second. Well anyway, by the time the fire engines had cleaned up the mess, and I was sure that U.L. was going to the hospital - I ran away. To all you folks at home that's called a hit and run. Unfortunately the Oklahoma State Police were not impressed with my donor's signature on my driver's license."

Nellie_Fox
04-29-2008, 12:33 AM
This whole thread has turned into a watery gruel of distinction at best. Let's go to an expert on the matter:

:farmer

"Well it's all very easy to differentiate......you know that's a funny word - differentiate. Not funny like a clown, to borrow a phrase off of Joe Pesci in Goodfellas - met Joe Pesci in New York once, didn't see him laughing - but funny in the sense of being a bit odd. It sounds a lot like differential, not meaning the difference between more than one thing or things, but the differential on a car. I had differential problems with my 1968 Belvedere convertible - it had a 383 four barrel - not 383 as in batting average, because that would have a decimal in front of it - not a period - not meaning an era of time - but the punctuation mark period....period. Well anyway I was cruising down Interstate 40 with U.L. Washington once, and I put the top down at about 75 miles per hour - all you kids at home don't speed - when his whole box of toothpicks flew out of his shirt pocket. Well U.L. told me to slow down - something he never did on the basepaths during run and hits and hit and runs and straight steals, anyway I locked up the brakes - again kids you should never do this at home - not meaning that you can put the brakes on your house, but not putting them on in the left lane of I-40 at 75 miles per hour - that's about 125 kilometers per metric hour in Canada - I think a metric hour has one hundred meter-minutes with each meter-minute having ten milli-seconds, or one deca-second. Well anyway, by the time the fire engines had cleaned up the mess, and I was sure that U.L. was going to the hospital - I ran away. To all you folks at home that's called a hit and run. Unfortunately the Oklahoma State Police were not impressed with my donor's signature on my driver's license."That cleared it all up. Thanks.

DSpivack
04-29-2008, 12:36 AM
This whole thread has turned into a watery gruel of distinction at best. Let's go to an expert on the matter:

:farmer

"Well it's all very easy to differentiate......you know that's a funny word - differentiate. Not funny like a clown, to borrow a phrase off of Joe Pesci in Goodfellas - met Joe Pesci in New York once, didn't see him laughing - but funny in the sense of being a bit odd. It sounds a lot like differential, not meaning the difference between more than one thing or things, but the differential on a car. I had differential problems with my 1968 Belvedere convertible - it had a 383 four barrel - not 383 as in batting average, because that would have a decimal in front of it - not a period - not meaning an era of time - but the punctuation mark period....period. Well anyway I was cruising down Interstate 40 with U.L. Washington once, and I put the top down at about 75 miles per hour - all you kids at home don't speed - when his whole box of toothpicks flew out of his shirt pocket. Well U.L. told me to slow down - something he never did on the basepaths during run and hits and hit and runs and straight steals, anyway I locked up the brakes - again kids you should never do this at home - not meaning that you can put the brakes on your house, but not putting them on in the left lane of I-40 at 75 miles per hour - that's about 125 kilometers per metric hour in Canada - I think a metric hour has one hundred meter-minutes with each meter-minute having ten milli-seconds, or one deca-second. Well anyway, by the time the fire engines had cleaned up the mess, and I was sure that U.L. was going to the hospital - I ran away. To all you folks at home that's called a hit and run. Unfortunately the Oklahoma State Police were not impressed with my donor's signature on my driver's license."

:rolling:

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 12:36 AM
No it doesn't have to go somewhere; it's an "initialism," which just uses the first letter of each word. Runs Batted In.

You don't say MPHS or MSPH when talking about more than one mile per hour, do you?

The traditional style of pluralizing single letters with the addition of ’s (for example, B’s come after A’s) was extended to some of the earliest initialisms, which tended to be written with periods to indicate the omission of letters; some writers still pluralize initialisms in this way. Some style guides continue to require such apostrophes—perhaps partly to make it clear that the lower case s is only for pluralization and would not appear in the singular form of the word, for some acronyms and abbreviations do include lowercase letters.
However, it has become common among many writers to inflect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflection) initialisms as ordinary words, using simple s, without an apostrophe, for the plural. In this case, compact discs becomes CDs. The logic here is that the apostrophe should be restricted to possessives: for example, the CD’s label (the label of the compact disc).[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym#cite_note-16)

WhiteSox5187
04-29-2008, 12:38 AM
The King is back!

The only time I've ever seen anything called a run and hit was in Tony La Russa's "Total Baseball" and there was an option for "run and hit."

Nellie_Fox
04-29-2008, 12:38 AM
The traditional style of pluralizing single letters with the addition of ’s (for example, B’s come after A’s) was extended to some of the earliest initialisms, which tended to be written with periods to indicate the omission of letters; some writers still pluralize initialisms in this way. Some style guides continue to require such apostrophes—perhaps partly to make it clear that the lower case s is only for pluralization and would not appear in the singular form of the word, for some acronyms and abbreviations do include lowercase letters.
However, it has become common among many writers to inflect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflection) initialisms as ordinary words, using simple s, without an apostrophe, for the plural. In this case, compact discs becomes CDs. The logic here is that the apostrophe should be restricted to possessives: for example, the CD’s label (the label of the compact disc).Okay, then it's R'sBI.

DSpivack
04-29-2008, 12:39 AM
Okay, then it's R'sBI.

It's not possessive, thus it's only RsBI. :tongue:

StillMissOzzie
04-29-2008, 12:41 AM
Kingsy, where you been? I've missed you!

SMO
:gulp:

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 12:46 AM
Okay, then it's R'sBI.

I don't think anything but the entirety of the acronym is pluralized. Therefore it would be RBIs. You make a good point about MPH staying as MPH no matter what the velocity much like the plural of moose is moose, but if you go too fast you won't get many MPGs.

Nellie_Fox
04-29-2008, 12:48 AM
It's not possessive, thus it's only RsBI. :tongue:See the posting I was responding to; it referenced using the apostrophe to denote the contraction.

I don't think anything but the entirety of the acronym is pluralized. Therefore it would be RBIs. You make a good point about MPH staying as MPH no matter what the velocity much like the plural of moose is moose, but if you go too fast you won't get many MPGs.I've never said MPGs, just MPG (as they do in all the car ads.)

StLSoxPride
04-29-2008, 12:52 AM
professor, i dont mean to question your knowledge, but the "initialism" RBI is used as a noun, therefore if you have more than one, it becomes plural, requiring a s to be added to the end of it. and no you do not say mphs or msph because those are units, which are standardized, along with their abbreviations. for this reason, tampering with them would just be illogical, almost as illogical as the thought that a run and hit is a legitimate play in professional baseball

DSpivack
04-29-2008, 12:52 AM
See the posting I was responding to; it referenced using the apostrophe to denote the contraction.

I've never said MPGs, just MPG (as they do in all the car ads.)

Yeah, I was just going on the last two sentences of the post.

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 12:54 AM
See the posting I was responding to; it referenced using the apostrophe to denote the contraction.

I've never said MPGs, just MPG (as they do in all the car ads.)

You say "ads"????? It's just "ad"

StLSoxPride
04-29-2008, 12:55 AM
MPG is also an abbreviation of a unit

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 12:56 AM
professor, i dont mean to question your knowledge, but the "initialism" RBI is used as a noun, therefore if you have more than one, it becomes plural, requiring a s to be added to the end of it. and no you do not say mphs or msph because those are units, which are standardized, along with their abbreviations. for this reason, tampering with them would just be illogical, almost as illogical as the thought that a run and hit is a legitimate play in professional baseball

I knew we'd somehow get this thread back on its (note no apostrophe) original path!

Elephant
04-29-2008, 01:00 AM
"That's right again Hawk. A run and hit is when a player runs while the pitch is being delivered, and if the pitch isn't put into play, that runner is gunning to steal the base anyway. While during a hit and run, the player will stay put until the ball is actually put into play."Uh, no. You just described "a hit." :rolleyes:

In a hit and run, the runner will wait until the pitcher has completely committed to the plate. This way he has a head start on the base hit to ensue and also cannot get picked off. The risks are you're gonna get double up on a line drive out; and if contact isn't made, you're almost certainly gonna get thrown out by a mile at second.
Run (straight steal) - runner goes on his gut, batter takes. Objective: stolen base.
Run and hit - runner goes on his gut, batter has green light. Objective: stolen base if not put into play; an extra base possible if it is put into play.
Hit and run - runner goes conservatively mid-pitch, only when the pitcher has irreversibly committed to the plate, and the batter must put the ball in play. Objective: an extra base for the runner on a batted ball.Basically, a run and hit is a combination of the "steal" and the "hit and run." With contact, you get an extra base; without contact you (ideally) get a stolen base. You're covered both ways in other words.

Elephant
04-29-2008, 01:02 AM
Well known acronyms like "RBI" are essentially words in and of themselves, and thus they can be pluralized like a word.

And get this...it can be done like this: RBIs, or like this: RBI's. Both are okay, depending on whom you ask and which style you're adhering to (journalism, MLA, APA, etc).

btrain929
04-29-2008, 01:02 AM
Uh, no. You just described "a hit." :rolleyes:

In a hit and run, the runner will wait until the pitcher has completely committed to the plate. This way he has a head start on the base hit to ensue and cannot get picked off. The risks are you're gonna get double up on a line drive out; and if contact isn't made, you're almost certainly gonna get thrown out by a mile at second.

Run (straight steal) - runner goes, batter takes. Objective: stolen base.
Run and hit - runner goes on delivery, batter has green light. Objective: stolen base if not put into play; an extra base possible if it is put into play.
Hit and run - runner goes conservatively mid-pitch, only when the pitcher has irreversibly committed to the plate, and the batter must put the ball in play. Objective: an extra base for the runner on a batted ball.Basically, a run and hit is a combination of the "steal" and the "hit and run." With contact, you get an extra base; without contact you (ideally) get a stolen base.

OK, so I was right, I just wasn't smart enough to break it down via bolded points. Well played, sir...

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 01:07 AM
Uh, no. You just described "a hit." :rolleyes:

In a hit and run, the runner will wait until the pitcher has completely committed to the plate. This way he has a head start on the base hit to ensue and cannot get picked off. The risks are you're gonna get double up on a line drive out; and if contact isn't made, you're almost certainly gonna get thrown out by a mile at second.

Run (straight steal) - runner goes, batter takes. Objective: stolen base.
Run and hit - runner goes on delivery, batter has green light. Objective: stolen base if not put into play; an extra base possible if it is put into play.
Hit and run - runner goes conservatively mid-pitch, only when the pitcher has irreversibly committed to the plate, and the batter must put the ball in play. Objective: an extra base for the runner on a batted ball.Basically, a run and hit is a combination of the "steal" and the "hit and run." With contact, you get an extra base; without contact you (ideally) get a stolen base.

Fine - but the point was how can an announcer tell if the play called was a hit and run or run and hit if the batter swings at the ball and makes contact? The explanation you are correcting was not mine, but came from our illustrious broadcast booth today (albeit not verbatim). Therefore the thread.

Elephant
04-29-2008, 01:08 AM
The traditional style of pluralizing single letters with the addition of ’s (for example, B’s come after A’s) was extended to some of the earliest initialisms, which tended to be written with periods to indicate the omission of letters; some writers still pluralize initialisms in this way. Some style guides continue to require such apostrophes—perhaps partly to make it clear that the lower case s is only for pluralization and would not appear in the singular form of the word, for some acronyms and abbreviations do include lowercase letters.
However, it has become common among many writers to inflect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflection) initialisms as ordinary words, using simple s, without an apostrophe, for the plural. In this case, compact discs becomes CDs. The logic here is that the apostrophe should be restricted to possessives: for example, the CD’s label (the label of the compact disc).[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym#cite_note-16)

For single characters, you go with the apostrophe for clarity. That way you're not playing the Oakland as.

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 01:09 AM
MPG is also an abbreviation of a unit

I will defer to your expertise and never say MPGs again.

Elephant
04-29-2008, 01:10 AM
Fine - but the point was how can an announcer tell if the play called was a hit and run or run and hit if the batter swings at the ball and makes contact? The explanation you are correcting was not mine, but came from our illustrious broadcast booth today (albeit not verbatim). Therefore the thread.

I know it wasn't yours.

I don't think I've ever heard a cogent explanation from Hawk with things like this. Then DJ nods in agreement and I'm sitting there with my thumb up my ass wondering what the **** just happened?!

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 01:15 AM
I know it wasn't yours.

I don't think I've ever heard a cogent explanation from Hawk with things like this. Then DJ nods in agreement and I'm sitting there with my thumb up my ass wondering what the **** just happened?!

Did you catch him - I think it was last night........

:hawk

"Mercy DJ.......these umpires have to call about 300 hundred pitches per game, it's not realistic to think that they're going to get all of them perfectly correct. That's just part of the game."

THE NEXT BATTER IS THOME (I think) WHO CHECKS UP ON A PITCH, AND THE ORIOLES APPEAL TO THE THIRD BASE UMPIRE WHO CALLS IT A STRIKE.

:hawk

"...................Come on'.....................Mercy!"

Elephant
04-29-2008, 01:17 AM
elephant, your explanation of the run and hit has done absolutely nothing but limit the possibility of it happening to a situation in which a left hander is throwing. the instant a right hander lifts his left leg he has committed to home plate in most situations. therefore the jump a runner gets on a straight steal vs a righty is the exact same as the jump on a 'run and hit'

also, taking a pitch is in no way, shape, or form part of a straight steal

No, I said with the run and hit, the runner goes on his gut..just like a straight steal. He can still get picked off, unlike in a properly executed hit and run, where you run once the pitcher has totally committed and is moving forward--if he tries to pick you off it's a balk.

You have not commited to the plate unless you're moving forward. If your leg kick is straight away, you still have the option of halting your delivery to make the pickoff.

edit: and IIRC as a pitcher, you cannot go back with your leg kick either and then make a pickoff attempt. You can only kick off at a 90 degree angle. Any more or less with a pickoff attempt is a balk.

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 01:18 AM
No, I said with the run and hit, the runner goes on his gut..just like a straight steal. He can still get picked off, unlike in a properly executed hit and run, where you run once the pitcher has totally committed and is moving forward.

You have not commited to the plate unless you're moving forward. If your leg kick is straight away, you still have the option of halting your delivery to make the pickoff.

That would be one weird move for a right handed pitcher.

Elephant
04-29-2008, 01:21 AM
That would be one weird move for a right handed pitcher.

It happens all the time. When runners are at the corners usually. RHP will kick and instead of delivering, come back down and make a throw.

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 01:27 AM
It happens all the time. When runners are at the corners usually. RHP will kick and instead of delivering, come back down and make a throw.

With runners on the corners I agree, due to the righthander being able to shift his weight easily toward third and fake a throw, but if a runner is not on third, and a right handed pitcher kicks straight up, and then shifts his weight toward first he's going to look like an octopus in a blender - and almost assuredly be called for a balk.

StLSoxPride
04-29-2008, 01:28 AM
i havent seen that move since i was 12

DSpivack
04-29-2008, 01:30 AM
For single characters, you go with the apostrophe for clarity. That way you're not playing the Oakland as.

Plenty of times we've been in the Coliseum of Horrors I have thought of them as the Oakland Ass, so that explanation suits me fine.

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 01:32 AM
:hawk

"Yep........the Ol' Octupus in a Blender move. You know DJ, Ol' Fred Lasher of the Ol' Detroit Tigers in Ol' Briggs Stadium pulled that move off better than anyone who has ever played this game. You didn't want to be in the batter's box when he was doing it though, because if he didn't pick anybody off you knew the next pitch was going to put you right down on your fanny."

:DJ

"Yeah partner - Fred Lasher"

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 01:33 AM
Well I'm going to bed.

It was fun catching up with some of you guys. I'll try to be around a bit more on this site than I have been lately.

doublem23
04-29-2008, 09:15 AM
:rolling:

If there was ever a day for a new KingXerxes thread, this was it.

the gooch
04-29-2008, 09:49 AM
i dont mean to get technical u of c, but if a hitter gets 1 Run Batted In, and another gets 6 Runs Batted In, that extra s has to go somewhere and RSBI doesnt flow off the tongue very well

Technically speaking, 6 RBI is correct, even though 6 RBIs may sound better.

I hitter gets six Runs Batted In not six Run Batted Ins

Other aggravations:

Mentioned by voodoo - The Fair Pole - No, it's a Foul Pole.

Guys who say "He got 6 RBI last night" - No, he got 6 RBIs last night.

The phonetic pronunciations of Latin names that Jon Miller is constantly trying to do.Much like the pluralization of words such as "alumnus" and "fungus", a Run Batted In is pluralized to Run BattI. It is just a pleasant coincidence that the acronyms are the same. Hope this clears up your confusion.

UofCSoxFan
04-29-2008, 11:28 AM
Well after doing a google search, grammar experts seem to say that the proper pluralization is either RBI or RBIs, so I guess it depends on who you ask.

I decided to go straight to the source. According to Merriam-Webster, the correct plural form of RBI is both RBI and RBIs. So I guess we are both right. I am pretty confident that 6 RBI is not wrong though, although it may not be the only correct form.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rbi

Paulwny
04-29-2008, 02:02 PM
Welcome back King, you still have it.

KingXerxes
04-29-2008, 11:45 PM
Welcome back King, you still have it.

Thanks Paulwny. Like I said last night, I'll try to stick around a bit more this year.

GeoffNotBlum
04-30-2008, 12:02 AM
I remember hearing about the run-and-hit a long time ago. Then there's the bunt-and-run, which is like a squeeze, but the runner is not on third.

But is the possessive form Sox' or Sox's, as in "the Sox' new left fielder"?

KingXerxes
04-30-2008, 12:15 AM
I remember hearing about the run-and-hit a long time ago. Then there's the bunt-and-run, which is like a squeeze, but the runner is not on third.

But is the possessive form Sox' or Sox's, as in "the Sox' new left fielder"?

:farmer

"Now I generally don't wear - as opposed to where - socks, although one can use where when asking about the location of socks if they so choose to wear them by asking "Where are my socks?", or if one has a little dog - named Socks - note the capitalization of the first letter - they can ask "Where's Socks?" if they are also looking for him. Now here's where - as opposed to wear - it get's kind of tricky. If one owns a small dog named Socks, and this dog in fact wears socks, and you have the dog but not his footwear, you would ask, "Where are Socks's socks?" but if in fact you have the socks - not the dog - but need to find Socks - not his socks - the you would say, "I have Socks, but where are the socks so Socks can wear them." - and not use the apostrophe."

IlliniSox4Life
04-30-2008, 01:06 AM
Awesome, KingXerxes. The perfect pick me up after a pretty awful game.


For all of you who don't know, KX's "ask farmio" thread, was voted the second greatest thread in WSI history, behind only the World Series Championship thread. http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=39334