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View Full Version : Carlos Quentin #3 hitter?


JermaineDye05
04-28-2008, 05:50 PM
Anyone else think this guy is destined for the #3 hole? He doesn't have great speed, but he's better then Thome/Dye/Pauly. He hits the heck out of the ball, gets on base (.436 OBP, should be higher after that homer), and he drives in runs. I really think he could flourish in that spot for a long time if he keeps hitting like this.

Noneck
04-28-2008, 05:58 PM
In the future, sure why not. I have a question for the present. When Dye comes back, Can he play right and send Dye to left?

soxinem1
04-28-2008, 05:59 PM
Not yet. Once he demonstrates some more consistent situational hitting, sure.

Maybe 2009, 2010.

Optipessimism
04-28-2008, 06:08 PM
Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

A 3-4-5-6 of Quentin-Thome-Konerko-Dye is sick. Quentin gets on base a lot and is a much more complete, and better, hitter than Thome. Plus he has better speed and doesn't K as much.

gna2112
04-28-2008, 06:13 PM
Right now, since we are playing good, consistant baseball...leave the line-up as is. But for the future, I agree with you 100%....he has a chance to be our best 3-hitter, since Big Frank's glory years.

oeo
04-28-2008, 06:13 PM
Not yet. Once he demonstrates some more consistent situational hitting, sure.

Maybe 2009, 2010.

I haven't looked, but I imagine he's been our best situational hitter all season. The guy has been coming through constantly.

That said, there's no reason to move him up right now. Swish/Dye should be moved into that role before Quentin.

getonbckthr
04-28-2008, 06:27 PM
The more I think about it I do not see Jermaine Dye on the team past this season. If we can find a way to move Dye and Thome after the season, re-sign Crede with their money, and retain Fields would we be losing that much total as a team?

rdwj
04-28-2008, 06:30 PM
The more I think about it I do not see Jermaine Dye on the team past this season. If we can find a way to move Dye and Thome after the season, re-sign Crede with their money, and retain Fields would we be losing that much total as a team?

I see Dye as a future DH for us. What do we do with Fields if we keep Crede?

soxinem1
04-28-2008, 06:34 PM
I haven't looked, but I imagine he's been our best situational hitter all season. The guy has been coming through constantly.

That said, there's no reason to move him up right now. Swish/Dye should be moved into that role before Quentin.

I did say some more. While I'm sure we all have liked what we have seen, we should just see more of it before we boot a guy with 513 HR's who is still a pretty high average and OBP hitter.

getonbckthr
04-28-2008, 06:45 PM
I see Dye as a future DH for us. What do we do with Fields if we keep Crede?
DH until Paulie is done at 1st and needs to DH.

getonbckthr
04-28-2008, 06:53 PM
I did say some more. While I'm sure we all have liked what we have seen, we should just see more of it before we boot a guy with 513 HR's who is still a pretty high average and OBP hitter.
It wouldn't be booting Thome. It would be making a decision that makes sense both financially and towards the future for the franchise. I belive Jim is what 39-40 yrs old? Besides Barry Bonds history says that Thome following this season has 1-2 more productive years left. Possibly we could look at a team like a Seattle or NYY, possibly pending the future of Garrett Anderson and whether Mathews JR stays on the team Anaheim could be a team in 09 looking for a DH. It would make sense. Toronto did release Thomas possibly Thome could be the DH for Toronto for a season or 2. Tampa Bay needs a DH. Figure Thome plays til 2010, sending Thome to Tampa or Toronto could make the EAST a powerful 4 team battle. Potentially they could beat each other up and knock each other out of the wild card thus making it that much easier to get into the playoffs.

the1tab
04-28-2008, 07:00 PM
I'm just throwing this out there... but Joe Torre has the intestinal fortitude to bat Andruw Jones and his sub-Mendoza batting average 8th in LA. Paulie sliding to see better pitches? Here's what I would like to see:

Swisher
Cabrera
Quentin
Thome
Crede
Dye
Konerko
AJ
Anyone but Uribe

AJ's hitting well enough still to protect Paulie. Crede & Carlos have been our best situational hitters, so why not make a move? It looks, albeit for 2 games, like the move Leyland made in Detroit swapping Miguel Cabrera and Carlos Guillen is working (in large part due to the return of Granderson).

Thoughts?

And can we get a 2nd baseman?

getonbckthr
04-28-2008, 07:04 PM
I checked baseball-reference.com couldn't find it. Can anyone find out Paulie's splits for each month on average?

DSpivack
04-28-2008, 07:20 PM
I checked baseball-reference.com couldn't find it. Can anyone find out Paulie's splits for each month on average?

Go to career>splits.

March/April: .274 / .348 / .482
May: .229 / .312 / .408
June: .305 / .379 / .554
July: .292 / .358 / .528
August: .292 / .363 / .514
September: .283 / .356 / .482

getonbckthr
04-28-2008, 07:23 PM
Go to career>splits.

March/April: .274 / .348 / .482
May: .229 / .312 / .408
June: .305 / .379 / .554
July: .292 / .358 / .528
August: .292 / .363 / .514
September: .283 / .356 / .482
Ahhh thank you. So if history repeats itself we got another month of struggling. Then maybe we should move him down in the order to take pressure off himself.

balke
04-28-2008, 07:43 PM
You guys are going to be eating a ton of crow talking about Thome like that once the weather heats up. I like Quentin, but Thome changes how other teams pitch to this entire team. If the Sox wanna challenge Dye for his spot in the rotation with Quentin they can go ahead. Its great to even be able to talk about something like this.

Tragg
04-28-2008, 07:46 PM
Not yet. Once he demonstrates some more consistent situational hitting, sure.

Maybe 2009, 2010. He lacks situational hitting? Whata does that mean? Situational outs? He's the best hitter on this team (or having the best year).
2007's lineup was replete with situational hitters.
Ozzie had Quentin 3rd string behind Ramirez and Owens, so any upward movement in the lineup will be slow (unless ordered by Williams).

getonbckthr
04-28-2008, 07:48 PM
You guys are going to be eating a ton of crow talking about Thome like that once the weather heats up. I like Quentin, but Thome changes how other teams pitch to this entire team. If the Sox wanna challenge Dye for his spot in the rotation with Quentin they can go ahead. Its great to even be able to talk about something like this.
Who said anything bad about Thome? Is it not true he is 37 soon to be 38? Is it not true that history says players start to decline at this point of their careers? Is it not true he gets a good sum of money? Nobody is bashing Thome just stating facts.

voodoochile
04-28-2008, 07:48 PM
I'm just throwing this out there... but Joe Torre has the intestinal fortitude to bat Andruw Jones and his sub-Mendoza batting average 8th in LA. Paulie sliding to see better pitches? Here's what I would like to see:

Swisher
Cabrera
Quentin
Thome
Crede
Dye
Konerko
AJ
Anyone but Uribe

AJ's hitting well enough still to protect Paulie. Crede & Carlos have been our best situational hitters, so why not make a move? It looks, albeit for 2 games, like the move Leyland made in Detroit swapping Miguel Cabrera and Carlos Guillen is working (in large part due to the return of Granderson).

Thoughts?

And can we get a 2nd baseman?

My thoughts are you should check out the recent box scores. PK has put 60 points on his average in the past 10 days or something.

Edit: Oh and I wouldn't mind seeing Quentin hitting higher. I suggested he had the makeup of a 3rd place hitter yesterday in the game thread.

Tragg
04-28-2008, 08:19 PM
It would be nice for Cabrera to pick it up....the way he's been hitting, he should hit out of the 8 hole.

getonbckthr
04-28-2008, 08:26 PM
It would be nice for Cabrera to pick it up....the way he's been hitting, he should hit out of the 8 hole.
Hopefully when the weather warms up.

cws05champ
04-28-2008, 08:37 PM
Go to career>splits.

March/April: .274 / .348 / .482
May: .229 / .312 / .408
June: .305 / .379 / .554
July: .292 / .358 / .528
August: .292 / .363 / .514
September: .283 / .356 / .482
You forgot October!!! :D:

IlliniSox4Life
04-28-2008, 08:46 PM
At some point, yes.

I'm not close to calling for him to replace Thome though. You need to keep it up for more than a month.

hawkjt
04-28-2008, 08:51 PM
As bad as PK has been in April, he is almost always horrid in May , so have to hang on for another month. He will bounce back then. But today when he was up in the 7th with man on second..I thought about his quote in todays paper about today being games that division winners have to win and he came thru with a clutch hit that should have given us the win.

CQ is hot right now.. lets leave him alone.

TDog
04-28-2008, 09:38 PM
I see Dye as a future DH for us. What do we do with Fields if we keep Crede?

Trade Fields to Baltimore so Jenks will have someone to strike out when he comes in to save games against the Orioles.

Seriously, with Cabrera not hitting yet (I hope "yet" is the appropriate adverb), I was thinking of Quentin batting second and Cabrera batting eighth. But it was just a thought, not something I think Ozzie Guillen would be some kind of a (fill in your favorite adjective) idiot not to do.

Frater Perdurabo
04-28-2008, 09:43 PM
Trade Fields to Baltimore so Jenks will have someone to strike out when he comes in to save games against the Orioles.

I know this wasn't the point of your post, but hypothetically, what would happen if Aubrey Huff (ejected today), or one of the relievers that the Orioles used, got traded to the Sox between now and when they continue the game. Would the Sox be eligible to use Huff or that reliever in the continued game?
:scratch:

turners56
04-28-2008, 09:45 PM
I don't think Quentin's a #3 hitter, he'd be more fitting as a #4 with such a high OBP. Unfortunately, Ozzie doesn't like to mix up the middle of the order very much.

voodoochile
04-28-2008, 10:18 PM
I don't think Quentin's a #3 hitter, he'd be more fitting as a #4 with such a high OBP. Unfortunately, Ozzie doesn't like to mix up the middle of the order very much.

Isn't OBP more valuable in a #3 hitter than a #4 hitter? Guys who hit for average, power and have high OBP are prototypical #3 hitters (see Thomas, Frank, Thome, Jim, etc.). Generally the best hitter on the team bats here and Quentin may just have the goods to do that. I couldn't watch the game today, but how about that double to RF?

Guys with good average and great power are more prototypical #4/5 slot hitters.

That's in a traditional sense.

I've noticed something else in his hitting stance that makes me simply drool. He is great at the art of "head down on contact". Watch him. He's rock solid in the box most of the time. Lots of line drives come from guys who hit like that and the last guy who played for the Sox who could do it consistently is in my signature. Yeah, it's WAY too early to be comparing TCQ to TBH, but as things stand now, it looks like the steal of the decade... er... century... er... millennium...:tongue:

voodoochile
04-28-2008, 10:20 PM
I know this wasn't the point of your post, but hypothetically, what would happen if Aubrey Huff (ejected today), or one of the relievers that the Orioles used, got traded to the Sox between now and when they continue the game. Would the Sox be eligible to use Huff or that reliever in the continued game?
:scratch:

Like if the Sox traded BA, Uribe and Crede to Baltimore for Roberts would the players be allowed to play for their new team and appear in both teams' box scores?

Now wouldn't that be funny...

ondafarm
04-28-2008, 10:27 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Quentin as the #2 hitter. If Cabrera keeps grounding into double plays then Quentin might get the shot.

A. Cavatica
04-28-2008, 11:50 PM
Isn't OBP more valuable in a #3 hitter than a #4 hitter? Guys who hit for average, power and have high OBP are prototypical #3 hitters (see Thomas, Frank, Thome, Jim, etc.). Generally the best hitter on the team bats here and Quentin may just have the goods to do that. I couldn't watch the game today, but how about that double to RF?

Guys with good average and great power are more prototypical #4/5 slot hitters.

That's in a traditional sense.

And it's an instance where the traditional wisdom is wrong. The #3 spot is a great place to waste a high-OBP hitter. TCQ would be a better #4 or #5.

The reasoning goes like this:

High OBP is most valuable when leading off an inning. Just like the "leadoff" hitter is guaranteed to lead off the game, the #3 hitter is guaranteed not to lead off in the first inning. You might as well bat the high OBP guy fourth, so he'll still get a chance to drive in any first-inning runners; and if there are no first-inning runners then you have a high OBP leading off the second inning.

voodoochile
04-28-2008, 11:57 PM
And it's an instance where the traditional wisdom is wrong. The #3 spot is a great place to waste a high-OBP hitter. TCQ would be a better #4 or #5.

The reasoning goes like this:

High OBP is most valuable when leading off an inning. Just like the "leadoff" hitter is guaranteed to lead off the game, the #3 hitter is guaranteed not to lead off in the first inning. You might as well bat the high OBP guy fourth, so he'll still get a chance to drive in any first-inning runners; and if there are no first-inning runners then you have a high OBP leading off the second inning.

Not necessarily. I mean you would value OBP in the 3rd slot more than the 4th slot because it leads to the power hitter batting 4th coming up with a guy on base more often.

However you value power in the 3-4-5 slots more than in the 1-2 slots because hopefully there will be someone on base to drive in when the power comes through. #3 hitters have to have the best of both worlds because they are guaranteed to see pitches in the first inning and are also hopefully seeing pitches with other runners on base. Since Quentin hits for Average and power and has a good walk ratio, he's definitely top of the order material.

Guy like Quentin is a top 3 hitter if he can continue to hit like has.

Most good teams will average a runner in the first inning through the course of a year (3 players with OBP ~.350 = 1.05 chance that someone will reach base on average each and every first inning).

A. Cavatica
04-29-2008, 12:08 AM
Not necessarily. I mean you would value OBP in the 3rd slot more than the 4th slot because it leads to the power hitter batting 4th coming up with a guy on base more often.

However you value power in the 3-4-5 slots more than in the 1-2 slots because hopefully there will be someone on base to drive in when the power comes through. #3 hitters have to have the best of both worlds because they are guaranteed to see pitches in the first inning and are also hopefully seeing pitches with other runners on base.

You might think that, but you'd be wrong. Bill James published a simulation a couple of decades ago that showed that OBP was more important in the #4 spot than in the #3 spot. (The #4 spot leads off more innings in a game than any spot but the #1.)

Sockinchisox
04-29-2008, 01:30 AM
Maybe in the future, but right now he's fine where he is. If he keeps hitting like this though they'll eventually move him up in the order.

jabrch
04-29-2008, 06:47 AM
Not necessarily. I mean you would value OBP in the 3rd slot more than the 4th slot because it leads to the power hitter batting 4th coming up with a guy on base more often.

VC - I don't think we'd score measurably more runs if we picked 1-8 randomly and just left Uribe at 9.

ChiSox65
04-29-2008, 07:58 AM
Not yet. Once he demonstrates some more consistent situational hitting, sure.

Maybe 2009, 2010.


Yea, were getting so much great clutch hitting right now let's wait another year or two til we figure this out.

:scratch:

cws05champ
04-29-2008, 08:17 AM
Like if the Sox traded BA, Uribe and Crede to Baltimore for Roberts would the players be allowed to play for their new team and appear in both teams' box scores?

Now wouldn't that be funny...

I think this happened in the NBA this year if I'm not mistaken. Teams had a game suspended(one of the teams was Miami), and then there was a trade in between them finishing the OT of the game. Any players not on the original roster at the start of the game are not eligible.

voodoochile
04-29-2008, 08:20 AM
I think this happened in the NBA this year if I'm not mistaken. Teams had a game suspended(one of the teams was Miami), and then there was a trade in between them finishing the OT of the game. Any players not on the original roster at the start of the game are not eligible.

There could be circumstances where teams would be forced to use pitchers to cover positions if that were the case. Other people are saying that if a player is out with an injury or has been traded then the person who took their roster spot would be eligible to play in the game. I was using a far out example.

Anyone got a link to the actual rule?

ondafarm
04-29-2008, 09:06 AM
I do recall seeing the box score of a Dodgers-Cubs game which was suspended (for darkness) and taken up months later after Davey Lopes had left the team. Both teams wound up using more than 25 players in the game.

the gooch
04-29-2008, 09:32 AM
Not necessarily. I mean you would value OBP in the 3rd slot more than the 4th slot because it leads to the power hitter batting 4th coming up with a guy on base more often.

However you value power in the 3-4-5 slots more than in the 1-2 slots because hopefully there will be someone on base to drive in when the power comes through. #3 hitters have to have the best of both worlds because they are guaranteed to see pitches in the first inning and are also hopefully seeing pitches with other runners on base. Since Quentin hits for Average and power and has a good walk ratio, he's definitely top of the order material.

Guy like Quentin is a top 3 hitter if he can continue to hit like has.

Most good teams will average a runner in the first inning through the course of a year (3 players with OBP ~.350 = 1.05 chance that someone will reach base on average each and every first inning).It's about a 73% chance at least one guy reaches base if you have 3 guys at .350 OBP.

...minus Cabrera's double plays.:redneck

Elephant
04-29-2008, 09:40 AM
And it's an instance where the traditional wisdom is wrong. The #3 spot is a great place to waste a high-OBP hitter. TCQ would be a better #4 or #5.

The reasoning goes like this:

High OBP is most valuable when leading off an inning. Just like the "leadoff" hitter is guaranteed to lead off the game, the #3 hitter is guaranteed not to lead off in the first inning. You might as well bat the high OBP guy fourth, so he'll still get a chance to drive in any first-inning runners; and if there are no first-inning runners then you have a high OBP leading off the second inning.

You might think that, but you'd be wrong. Bill James published a simulation a couple of decades ago that showed that OBP was more important in the #4 spot than in the #3 spot. (The #4 spot leads off more innings in a game than any spot but the #1.)

Maybe that's because too many teams' no. 3 hitters aren't good enough and are making the third out too often.

You want your best hitter period to come up in the first inning every game, which gives you the best possible chance of scoring first. Additionally, he's much more likely to bat with a runner on since he's right behind the table-setters.

Why would you want your best hitter to lead off innings more? That makes no sense. This is where OBP love gets out of hand.

Frank gave us a loooot of 1-0 leads in his time here. That's what you want. You definitely don't want to give a pitcher an inning to settle in. That first inning solo shot isn't necessarily going to happen in the second inning if Frank is the cleanup hitter.

Nevertheless, you need comparable hitters in the 3 and 4 spot in the American league and in this day and age. I would definitely put my best guy in the 3 hole though.

A.T. Money
04-29-2008, 09:41 AM
I think he's hitting good where he is. Why mess with a good thing?

GAsoxfan
04-29-2008, 10:25 AM
I think this happened in the NBA this year if I'm not mistaken. Teams had a game suspended(one of the teams was Miami), and then there was a trade in between them finishing the OT of the game. Any players not on the original roster at the start of the game are not eligible.

That was the Hawks/Heat game. Originally, the players not on the original roster weren't eligible, but b/c of the trades the teams didn't have enough players to field a team, so the acquired players were allowed to play.

EMachine10
04-29-2008, 11:13 AM
If they made a few TCQ clones, he could bat everywhere and we could settle this debate.

VeeckAsInWreck
04-29-2008, 11:33 AM
I think he's hitting good where he is. Why mess with a good thing?

There are too many online managers and GM's here.

oeo
04-29-2008, 11:36 AM
I don't think Quentin's a #3 hitter, he'd be more fitting as a #4 with such a high OBP. Unfortunately, Ozzie doesn't like to mix up the middle of the order very much.

There's no reason to mess with a good thing in Quentin right now. He's still young, and having a monster season thusfar, hitting 6 or 7...why screw that up?

And some of you need to realize that he's not going to hit this well all season. When he struggles at any point in the season, I hope we're not going to see people all over him.

soxfan13
04-29-2008, 11:36 AM
There could be circumstances where teams would be forced to use pitchers to cover positions if that were the case. Other people are saying that if a player is out with an injury or has been traded then the person who took their roster spot would be eligible to play in the game. I was using a far out example.

Anyone got a link to the actual rule?

rule 4.12 and 4.13 from the MLB Rule Book on suspended games states that a player not on the roster at the time of a suspnded game can be used when the game resumes.

tick53
04-29-2008, 06:13 PM
My brother and I were discussing that very topic during Saturdays game. Yes X 2.

JermaineDye05
05-15-2008, 04:47 AM
Glad to see Ozzie finally made this happen. This guy shouldn't move from this spot, not when he's hitting and driving in runs like this.

kitekrazy
05-15-2008, 11:37 AM
Who said anything bad about Thome? Is it not true he is 37 soon to be 38? Is it not true that history says players start to decline at this point of their careers?

Unless they get that lightning in a bottle like Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa......Palmero, McGuire,......