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View Full Version : What to do about Octavio Dotel


chisoxfanatic
04-26-2008, 04:17 PM
Whenever Dotel comes in from the bullpen, I have an uneasy feeling much like I did Aardsma last year. Whenever he's out there, he seems to always be giving up runs (or allowing inherited runners to cross home), and I don't want it to cost the Sox too many games from here on out (I'm not blaming this afternoon's game solely on him...just saying).

I personally think that Wasserman deserves a chance up here if he can't get it together in the next week. I know he's got an incredibly huge salary; but, the team should come first here! We can't afford to let too many winable games go the opposite way when this division's most likely gonna be a heated race the entire season.

Lip Man 1
04-26-2008, 04:19 PM
I don't know what to make of Dotel right now. I'm wondering if he's tipping his pitches?

Lip

turners56
04-26-2008, 04:22 PM
He always gets close to getting out of jams, but always gives up the big hit with two outs. Today wasn't entirely his fault, Konerko screwed up that grounder at first, even though it had a lot of spin on it. Plus, he's getting paid $5 million right now, it's too early to pull the plug on a guy with that high of a salary.

chisoxfanatic
04-26-2008, 04:27 PM
He always gets close to getting out of jams, but always gives up the big hit with two outs. Today wasn't entirely his fault, Konerko screwed up that grounder at first, even though it had a lot of spin on it. Plus, he's getting paid $5 million right now, it's too early to pull the plug on a guy with that high of a salary.

I seriously think that's the only thing keeping him here.

Lip Man 1
04-26-2008, 04:31 PM
Turner:

You bring up a good point in my opinion. But it's not just Dotel...the Sox especially in the past ten days, are absolutely getting killed by allowing two out runs.

Just Thursday the Yanks scored six with two out for example.

Lip

turners56
04-26-2008, 04:39 PM
Turner:

You bring up a good point in my opinion. But it's not just Dotel...the Sox especially in the past ten days, are absolutely getting killed by allowing two out runs.

Just Thursday the Yanks scored six with two out for example.

Lip

Based on the way the Sox pitched in that series, the Yankees were the best situational hitting club in baseball (which they aren't). I don't know what's going on, but before this big mess of 2 outs must mean 3 outs thing, Dotel was one of the only guys giving up runs with 2 outs in late inning situations (that was only once in Cleveland too...)

oeo
04-26-2008, 04:40 PM
I don't know what to make of Dotel right now. I'm wondering if he's tipping his pitches?

Lip

He's tipping his pitches like David Aardsma tipped pitches.

You give them something to hit, more times than not, they're going to hit it.

turners56
04-26-2008, 04:42 PM
He's tipping his pitches like David Aardsma tipped pitches.

You give them something to hit, more times than not, they're going to hit it.

I wonder if Coop knows anything about this...

Lip Man 1
04-26-2008, 05:10 PM
Turner:

Well remember Booby gave up two, two out runs in Baltimore and Mark last Saturday gave up three, two out runs on four straight hits after the botched rundown.

Contreras gave up five two runs runs to Detroit earlier in the season in a game the Sox won.

Lip

Parrothead
04-26-2008, 05:25 PM
The Great Don Cooper (the best pitching coach that ever lived) will fix him, he can "fix" anyone.

oeo
04-26-2008, 05:57 PM
Turner:

Well remember Booby gave up two, two out runs in Baltimore and Mark last Saturday gave up three, two out runs on four straight hits after the botched rundown.

Contreras gave up five two runs runs to Detroit earlier in the season in a game the Sox won.

Lip

The thing that kills me isn't just the two out runs, but that they're often times getting the first two outs before anything is even started. Matt Thornton apparently loves to do this.

2 outs, nobody on, and suddenly 2 runs go up on the board.

A.T. Money
04-26-2008, 05:59 PM
If the Sox would hit the damn ball today, maybe Dotel isn't even a concern.

The offense was pathetic. The kid pitched well, but the Sox looked like they were just looking to get through the game.

Stringer
04-26-2008, 06:02 PM
No hate for Mike MacDougal?

:scratch:

Hitmen77
04-26-2008, 06:07 PM
Turner:

Well remember Booby gave up two, two out runs in Baltimore and Mark last Saturday gave up three, two out runs on four straight hits after the botched rundown.

Contreras gave up five two runs runs to Detroit earlier in the season in a game the Sox won.

Lip

The two-out runs killed us last year too.

Tragg
04-26-2008, 06:14 PM
Slot him where his performance warrants. His salary is a sunk cost and should be irrelevant in the decision. I doubt he's the last pitcher in the pen right now, talent/performance wise though.

If you can't get career middle relievers cheap, use your own young talent to fill the bullpen.

MacDougal is nicely dressed-up right now...2.08 ERA and really pitching like he usually does. We lost a strong arm trading for MacDougal...maybe Kenny can get it back for the team.

oeo
04-26-2008, 06:22 PM
MacDougal is nicely dressed-up right now...2.08 ERA and really pitching like he usually does. We lost a strong arm trading for MacDougal...maybe Kenny can get it back for the team.

Oh waaaah.

We were looking to repeat in 2006, and we needed bullpen help. MacDougal did give that to us the rest of 2006. He was not the problem, we had other issues.

Going back to that time in 2006, and knowing that MacDougal would be this bad now, I would still support that trade.

BTW, Lumsden has turned out pretty good, hasn't he?

Craig Grebeck
04-26-2008, 08:48 PM
Oh waaaah.

We were looking to repeat in 2006, and we needed bullpen help. MacDougal did give that to us the rest of 2006. He was not the problem, we had other issues.

Going back to that time in 2006, and knowing that MacDougal would be this bad now, I would still support that trade.

BTW, Lumsden has turned out pretty good, hasn't he?
He means Daniel Cortes.

MisterB
04-26-2008, 08:51 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5766&d=1209256886
"I think we should shoot him..."

chisoxfanatic
04-26-2008, 11:35 PM
No hate for Mike MacDougal?

:scratch:

He truly is the lesser of the two evils. Give me 10 outings, I'll pitch MacDougal over Doltel in 9 of them.

RadioheadRocks
04-26-2008, 11:36 PM
Preheat the oven to 450...

It's Dankerific
04-27-2008, 02:34 AM
According to Ozzie, you have to keep pitching him.

Because his stuff is there. He is a little wild.

Thats what I want out of MY bullpen

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080426-white-sox-doubleheader,1,4265799.story

Nellie_Fox
04-27-2008, 02:37 AM
Dotel could become the Juan Agosto of 2008.

TDog
04-27-2008, 02:49 AM
Turner:

Well remember Booby gave up two, two out runs in Baltimore and Mark last Saturday gave up three, two out runs on four straight hits after the botched rundown.

Contreras gave up five two runs runs to Detroit earlier in the season in a game the Sox won.

Lip

In Buehrle's previous start he gave up a bunch of two-out runs. The first two runs he gave up Saturday night came after he retired the first two batters in the inning.

Both ninth-inning runs the Sox scored Saturday came with two outs. Granted, the first didn't help the Sox win. Some would call it meaningless, although it did bring the potential tying run to the plate in a game where the Sox were outplayed.

It almost seems as if the Sox pitchers are losing their focus. Danks seems guilty of losing his focus whenever he takes a no-hitter into the middle innings and gives up a single. It's not always the best hitters getting the two-out hits.

I don't believe talent is the issue.

russ99
04-27-2008, 06:32 AM
Dotel's problem throughout his career (even closing with Houston and Oakland) is giving up that one bad pitch. He's obviously got good stuff, and he is coming of a pretty bad injury so some patience should be in order.

My biggest issue is that he's a poor choice to bring in with 2 or more men on base and less than 2 outs. Ideally he'd be the guy to start the 7th inning fresh.

Once Ozzie realizes this, he'll be more effective, but he loves to ride starters into their last inning and play his lefty-righty games.

palehozenychicty
04-28-2008, 11:20 AM
Dotel should be canned. His salary prohibits that for now, but he's really not that good. He's another MacDougal.

cws05champ
04-28-2008, 11:33 AM
Dotel's problem throughout his career (even closing with Houston and Oakland) is giving up that one bad pitch. He's obviously got good stuff, and he is coming of a pretty bad injury so some patience should be in order.

My biggest issue is that he's a poor choice to bring in with 2 or more men on base and less than 2 outs. Ideally he'd be the guy to start the 7th inning fresh.

Once Ozzie realizes this, he'll be more effective, but he loves to ride starters into their last inning and play his lefty-righty games.

Dotel should be moved out of the 7th inning roll. His stats this year are hard to judge because of the sample size, but just look at last year:
Bases empty: 0.68 ERA, Runners on base: 6.75 ERA, RISP: 8.53 ERA , RISP w/ 2 outs: 7.20 ERA

That's awful for your set up man who has to get inherited runners out. How Ozzie is using him is just setting him up to fail. Instead of letting him start an inning, he brings him in on these situations which he continually blows.
The 7th should be matchups with Logan, Wasserman and Linebrink, Jenks in the 8th and 9th.

102605
04-28-2008, 11:37 AM
Dotel looked great last year after coming back. It is still only April! Give it some more time.

hi im skot
04-28-2008, 12:13 PM
He truly is the lesser of the two evils. Give me 10 outings, I'll pitch MacDougal over Doltel in 9 of them.

Really? Even prior to yesterday's performance, I trust Dotel more (which, of course, isn't saying much); if his fastball is working, he can be dangerous.

sox1970
04-28-2008, 12:14 PM
Dotel looked great last year after coming back. It is still only April! Give it some more time.

I agree. Too early to write him off.

TomBradley72
04-28-2008, 12:33 PM
I'm OK with Dotel where he is now...in MacDougal's slot...5th/6th inning guy or mop up/junk time guy. He's a nice upgrade from Mac...with some work...I think he has a chance to come around. He's a decent talent to have as your 11th guy in 12 man staff.

VeeckAsInWreck
04-28-2008, 01:06 PM
I agree. Too early to write him off.

This time last year David Aardsma was lights out, then the calendar flipped to May and we all know what happened there.

Tragg
04-28-2008, 01:09 PM
Dotel could become the Juan Agosto of 2008.
I was thinkiing Cy Acosta.

Sort of the feeling I get when watching Astros games and pitching coach Dewey Robinson comes out.

Dotel's problem is with gopher balls...so pitch him to start an inning - most of the time he'll get through it. If he puts runners on, lift him. I'd much rather Dotel than MacDougal.

NADA SURF
05-01-2008, 03:26 AM
Ya sit back and watch him start to kick butt, as he did today.

chisoxfanatic
05-03-2008, 02:56 PM
Ya sit back and watch him start to kick butt, as he did today.

That's a great deal of butt-kicking he's done out there today (and all but maybe one of his outings this year)!!! :rolleyes: Seriously, he's ending up being the 2008 version of Ryan Bukvich and could end up being even worse when all is said and done.

Brutal, just brutal! One batter faced is one batter too many for him!

jabrch
05-03-2008, 02:57 PM
Did I miss something? Didn't Crede have the chance to get us out of that inning with no runs scored?

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 02:57 PM
Did I miss something? Didn't Crede have the chance to get us out of that inning with no runs scored?

Dotel punched him in the face as he went for the ball.

chisoxfanatic
05-03-2008, 03:04 PM
Dotel doesn't deserve to be defended. He still made some pretty bad pitches there.

jabrch
05-03-2008, 03:11 PM
Dotel doesn't deserve to be defended. He still made some pretty bad pitches there.

and had Joe made the play, he'd have gone out without allowing any runs. Bashing Dotel for this is insane.

sox1970
05-03-2008, 03:16 PM
and had Joe made the play, he'd have gone out without allowing any runs. Bashing Dotel for this is insane.

BULL ****ING ****!!!!

Dotel put the runners on to begin with!

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 03:22 PM
BULL ****ING ****!!!!

Dotel put the runners on to begin with!

Dotel isn't off the hook her but c'mon. Had Joe made the play, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

sox1970
05-03-2008, 03:25 PM
Dotel isn't off the hook her but c'mon. Had Joe made the play, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Immaterial. Part of pitching is overcoming mistakes.

Same with Buehrle a couple times this year.

jabrch
05-03-2008, 03:26 PM
Immaterial.

Bull****

jabrch
05-03-2008, 03:27 PM
BULL ****ING ****!!!!

Dotel put the runners on to begin with!

And got out of the same jam...had Joe made the play.

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 03:31 PM
Immaterial. Part of pitching is overcoming mistakes.

Same with Buehrle a couple times this year.

Sometimes guys get out of it and sometimes they don't. Even the best pitchers falter when their defense doesn't support him. There are plenty of reasons to rag on Dotel but this situation shouldn't be high in the list.

turners56
05-03-2008, 03:46 PM
What do you know, Blotel's ERA is 4.66 now...his numbers make him look a lot better than he is.

chisoxfanatic
05-03-2008, 03:49 PM
BULL ****ING ****!!!!

Dotel put the runners on to begin with!
Agreed!

Sometimes guys get out of it and sometimes they don't. Even the best pitchers falter when their defense doesn't support him. There are plenty of reasons to rag on Dotel but this situation shouldn't be high in the list.
I wholeheartedly disagree; but, whatever... :rolleyes:

What do you know, Blotel's ERA is 4.66 now...his numbers make him look a lot better than he is.

That ERA would've been much higher if the zillions of inherited runners he's allowed to score were HIS base-runners. Truth is, Doltell is NOT an effective pitcher!

TDog
05-03-2008, 04:36 PM
Immaterial. Part of pitching is overcoming mistakes.

Same with Buehrle a couple times this year.

I was angry with Buehrle for his first inning yesterday and I am just as angry with Dotel about his inning today. And Buehrle's runs allowed were less excusable. The difference is minimal, though. The first Dotel run that scored scored on an error, but he compounded it with a hit.

I don't know why some people who readily gave Buehrle a pass are attacking Dotel.

It isn't just Dotel. It has been most of the pitchers on the staff. Giving up so many two-out runs on hits is like striking out with runners at second and third and one out. People complain that the hitters aren't clutch. It's been a while since I've seen a team combine unclutch hitting, unclutch fielding and unclutch pitching into the sort of team slump the White Sox are in now.

As bad as the offense has been, if White Sox pitchers had gotten maybe key outs that they didn't this year, they would have a comfortable lead in the division. Even Friday and today, not allowing the single after the double after the error in the first and making the play with two outs and the bases loaded in Dotel's inning today led to the eventual difference in the game, just as Dotel's allowing a two-out three-run home run on opening day was the difference.

It isn't just fans such as Lip and I who are noticing these things. I was impressed that Guillen took Danks out of the game with two outs and the bases loaded in the fifth and that he took out Logan with two outs and two on in the seventh. Logan had a shorter leash because of bullpen matchups, but in both cases, the Jays put multiple runners on base after the first two hitters were retired and the pitcher wasn't getting the third out.

Lip Man 1
05-03-2008, 05:10 PM
TDog:

I think when you have allowed that many runs with two outs either someone is stealing your signs from 2nd base or you simply have fallen' into a pattern pitching-wise.

Maybe it's time to change one or the other or both.

Lip

TDog
05-03-2008, 05:29 PM
TDog:

I think when you have allowed that many runs with two outs either someone is stealing your signs from 2nd base or you simply have fallen' into a pattern pitching-wise.

Maybe it's time to change one or the other or both.

Lip


You might be right. The hits aren't all coming with runners on second base. It may be a combination of the two. It has been a problem with every pitcher and one that the coaching staff has obviously noticed.

Relieving Danks today I think probably addressed the pattern issue. Obviously I don't know what is being done to address possible sign stealing.

JB98
05-03-2008, 05:32 PM
Here's the bottom line:

Crede's defense cost us one run in the seventh. Dotel's pitching cost us the other two.

After the error, the club needed Dotel to pick Crede up and get Vernon Wells out. Instead, he made a horse**** pitch and gave up a two-run single.

Horse****.

Chicken Dinner
05-03-2008, 05:56 PM
Time to take him out to the woodshed. :D:

FarWestChicago
05-04-2008, 07:49 AM
Dotel punched him in the face as he went for the ball.That may be the only time Blotel hit a location all year. :redneck

TornLabrum
05-04-2008, 10:10 AM
That may be the only time Blotel hit a location all year. :redneck

I heard he was trying to kick him in the groin.