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Irishsox1
04-24-2008, 03:31 PM
If Owens was 100% healthy would he be back at leadoff or are the Sox going to stick with Swisher at leadoff?

The Sox have had success with Swisher leading off, but to me the best line up would be with Owens leading off and in center, Swisher down in the order playing left, Quintin off the bench and Anderson sent down.

oeo
04-24-2008, 03:35 PM
If Owens was 100% healthy would he be back at leadoff or are the Sox going to stick with Swisher at leadoff?

The Sox have had success with Swisher leading off, but to me the best line up would be with Owens leading off and in center, Swisher down in the order playing left, Quintin off the bench and Anderson sent down.

They already made this decision when Owens came off the DL...

twsoxfan5
04-24-2008, 03:35 PM
They are going to leave it as is unless they go into a nose dive. As Ozzie has said before you can't steal first and Swisher's OBP is more important than Owens potential base steal bases.

TDog
04-24-2008, 03:47 PM
They are going to leave it as is unless they go into a nose dive. As Ozzie has said before you can't steal first and Swisher's OBP is more important than Owens potential base steal bases.

When you have Thome and Konerko hitting third and fourth, it's nice to have them come up with first base open, but you wouldn't see a lot of attempted stealing from the leadoff spot to get a runner into scoring position when you have home run power coming up.

The importance of stolen bases is minimal when compared to the importance of getting on base.

EndemicSox
04-24-2008, 04:08 PM
The importance of stolen bases is minimal when compared to the importance of getting on base.

Amen

Irishsox1
04-24-2008, 04:34 PM
Station to station baseball works, but I think Owens at the top of the line up will benefit this team more than Swisher at leadoff. It's not like this is an original idea, it's basically the same formula that the Sox used with Podsednik in 2005.

I guess, we'll just have to wait and see if this works.

oeo
04-24-2008, 04:38 PM
Station to station baseball works, but I think Owens at the top of the line up will benefit this team more than Swisher at leadoff. It's not like this is an original idea, it's basically the same formula that the Sox used with Podsednik in 2005.

I guess, we'll just have to wait and see if this works.

That's the thing: it is working. Swisher isn't the problem with the lineup right now.

I was all for Owens getting a shot, but I like Swisher at the top of the lineup now. He gets on base, and is not terribly slow. If Cabrera would start being that player we were told he is, and the middle of the lineup could show some consistency, then we could put up more runs.

And as for Swisher's defense in CF...it's actually pretty good. I'm definitely surprised. He's actually a pretty good outfielder, and to think I thought he would be a butcher out there.

kobo
04-24-2008, 04:39 PM
Station to station baseball works, but I think Owens at the top of the line up will benefit this team more than Swisher at leadoff. It's not like this is an original idea, it's basically the same formula that the Sox used with Podsednik in 2005.

I guess, we'll just have to wait and see if this works.
Swisher right now has an OBP of .400 and has 18 walks on the year. What's the problem?

southsideirish71
04-24-2008, 04:40 PM
Station to station baseball works, but I think Owens at the top of the line up will benefit this team more than Swisher at leadoff. It's not like this is an original idea, it's basically the same formula that the Sox used with Podsednik in 2005.

I guess, we'll just have to wait and see if this works.

Yeah lets replace a guy at leadoff who has an OBP of over .400 with a guy who may have a .300 OBP. Then lets take out a kid in left field who has power and a .380OBP as well. That will do wonders for the offense.

Swisher at leadoff + Quentin >>>>> Owens leading off + Swisher

BigKlu59
04-24-2008, 04:40 PM
We're gettin em on base... Even against the vaunted Yankmees.. Weeze just not gettin em in.. Like I say's ... Go Go Go You White Sox !!!!

BigKlu59

slowlearner
04-24-2008, 04:41 PM
The importance of stolen bases is minimal when compared to the importance of getting on base.

Exactly. If the Sox do decide to bring Owens up, he's the one who should be coming off the bench as a pinch runner in late inning situations, close games, etc., when his speed is most valuable.

Lip Man 1
04-24-2008, 04:44 PM
Not getting into this Owens debate but regarding team speed. If you have it, it doesn't take as many hits strung together in a row to score runs does it?

That's especially compounded when the team batting average is around .240.

Lip

oeo
04-24-2008, 04:54 PM
Not getting into this Owens debate but regarding team speed. If you have it, it doesn't take as many hits strung together in a row to score runs does it?

That's especially compounded when the team batting average is around .240.

Lip

Then when Richar gets healthy, dump Uribe. Also, trade Crede and bring Fields up.

That makes for a faster team, without screwing up a good thing in the outfield.

BTW, before anyone jumps all over me, I'm not ready to make both of those moves. Although, Crede is going to be heading out the door eventually. Let's ride him out and try to get something for him.

TDog
04-24-2008, 05:01 PM
Not getting into this Owens debate but regarding team speed. If you have it, it doesn't take as many hits strung together in a row to score runs does it?

That's especially compounded when the team batting average is around .240.

Lip


... which, of course, is a different subject altogether. The White Sox would be better off if Crede had Fields' speed or Fields had Crede's glove. In putting together a baseball team, there are always a variety of needs to address. I read that Ted Williams tried out for the St. Louis Cardinals but was considered too slow to sign. It might have been tough for the Cardinals to win with Williams and Stan Musial clogging up the middle of the lineup.

Improving team speed isn't as simple as calling up/activating a player with speed.

AZChiSoxFan
04-24-2008, 05:15 PM
Then when Richar gets healthy, dump Uribe. Also, trade Crede and bring Fields up.

That makes for a faster team, without screwing up a good thing in the outfield.

BTW, before anyone jumps all over me, I'm not ready to make both of those moves. Although, Crede is going to be heading out the door eventually. Let's ride him out and try to get something for him.

Sorry but I'll pass. I have zero interest in getting rid of the player who leads the team in Homers and RBI and plays gold glove caliber defense at the hot corner. Next.

WhiteSox5187
04-24-2008, 05:26 PM
Here's the advantage to having Owens leading off IF, and this is a biiiig if, but if Owens is getting on at say a .400 clip, with the added speed, this means that pitchers are going to be more likely to throw fastballs to middle of this line up to keep him from stealing a base every time. And this lineup can KILL fastballs. So that's the benefit of having him leadoff. But having said that, I don't know who you would take out of the lineup right now to give him that spot and I don't think I would want to throw him out there at leadoff right away, I'd probably want him hitting 9th and prove he can get on base and then move him up to the one spot. But I don't know where you would want him to play and I don't know who I would sit in favor of Owens right now. If Owens were a second baseman, this problem would be solved!

Frater Perdurabo
04-24-2008, 05:31 PM
I like what Swisher does at the top of the lineup, so let's not change that.

I would not be opposed to finding a way to get speed into the #9 hole, though.

It would be hard to get Owens in there, unless he becomes the "utility" OF, getting two or three starts a week by giving Dye, Quentin and Swisher one day off each week.

When he is healthy, it would be easier to put Richar at 2B and bench Uribe. For the time being, Ozuna could be used at 2B to get speed in the 9-hole, although that weakens the defense.

Lefty34
04-24-2008, 05:54 PM
Here's the advantage to having Owens leading off IF, and this is a biiiig if, but if Owens is getting on at say a .400 clip, with the added speed, this means that pitchers are going to be more likely to throw fastballs to middle of this line up to keep him from stealing a base every time. And this lineup can KILL fastballs. So that's the benefit of having him leadoff. But having said that, I don't know who you would take out of the lineup right now to give him that spot and I don't think I would want to throw him out there at leadoff right away, I'd probably want him hitting 9th and prove he can get on base and then move him up to the one spot. But I don't know where you would want him to play and I don't know who I would sit in favor of Owens right now. If Owens were a second baseman, this problem would be solved!

If Owens were to come back and get on base at the clip that Swisher is, I would have no problem with him batting lead-off. The thing is, Owens is a guy with an MLB OBP of .324 in 356 AB's last year, and his best OBP in AAA was .366 in 232 AB's. When Owens eventually comes back, does anyone want to take the time to slide him into that lead-off position and see if he can produce at an above-average clip like Swisher? How many games could that potentially cost the Sox?

I like the idea of him being used as a late-inning runner and spot-starter to spell Quentin and Swisher along with Anderson, but IMO the time needed to even see if he can produce at the level you want has the possibility to be detrimental to the team.


And as for Swisher's defense in CF...it's actually pretty good. I'm definitely surprised. He's actually a pretty good outfielder, and to think I thought he would be a butcher out there.

I agree with you completely. Admittedly, I was one of the people calling for BA to start in CF because I thought Swisher didn't have what it takes to play a good defensive CF. Truth be told, he proved me wrong. I like the lineup the way it is.

TheVulture
04-24-2008, 06:31 PM
I'd love the Sox to have speed just like the '80s Cardinals teams. Still, I'd rather stick with the best players and that term just doesn't apply to Owens. I hear he looks good in Charlotte, uh, myrtle?

I_Liked_Manuel
04-24-2008, 06:49 PM
i like an outfield of quentin/swisher/dye much more than swisher/owens/dye. to me, owens is nothing more than a poor man's juan pierre. i'd like to have him up here as a pinch runner though.

Stringer
04-24-2008, 07:24 PM
I'd like an outfield of Nick, Jerry and Jermaine

Jerry leading off

Nick batting 5th

Daver
04-24-2008, 07:43 PM
I'd like an outfield of Nick, Jerry and Jermaine

Jerry leading off

Nick batting 5th

Why?

To have the worst defensive outfield in baseball?

Craig Grebeck
04-24-2008, 07:55 PM
Not getting into this Owens debate but regarding team speed. If you have it, it doesn't take as many hits strung together in a row to score runs does it?

That's especially compounded when the team batting average is around .240.

Lip
It also doesn't take as many hits when you're walking at an awesome clip like our CF and LF.

Jerome
04-24-2008, 08:01 PM
They are going to leave it as is unless they go into a nose dive. As Ozzie has said before you can't steal first and Swisher's OBP is more important than Owens potential base steal bases.

not in 2005

I think with the hot start Swisher got off to, you leave him in there unless things go horribly wrong. And these last two games against the yankees, while bad, do not quite qualify as horribly wrong.

Metalthrasher442
04-25-2008, 12:40 AM
Hm what are we gunna do about JD's groin.

hi im skot
04-25-2008, 12:47 AM
I'd like an outfield of Nick, Jerry and Jermaine

Jerry leading off

Nick batting 5th

And Quentin plays...?

No thanks.

KyWhiSoxFan
04-25-2008, 07:57 AM
The only way I can see Owens being called up and getting playing time right now is if Ozzie wanted to rotate days off for some players, like Dye and Konerko. Swisher would play RF and CF on those days, and perhaps LF if
Quentin gets a day off. Owens would play about three times a week. Under that scenario, BA would have to be sent down.

Frater Perdurabo
04-25-2008, 08:53 AM
The only way I can see Owens being called up and getting playing time right now is if Ozzie wanted to rotate days off for some players, like Dye and Konerko. Swisher would play RF and CF on those days, and perhaps LF if
Quentin gets a day off. Owens would play about three times a week. Under that scenario, BA would have to be sent down.

Why couldn't Ramirez be sent down? He needs to get regular ABs so the Sox can find out if he could be a legitimate SS in 2009, in case Cabrera leaves.

We already know that BA can hit AAA pitching. We don't know that about Ramirez.

FedEx227
04-25-2008, 01:01 PM
Hm what are we gunna do about JD's groin.

LF- Quentin
CF- Anderson
RF- Swisher

spiffie
04-25-2008, 01:03 PM
Here's the advantage to having Owens leading off IF, and this is a biiiig if, but if Owens is getting on at say a .400 clip, with the added speed, this means that pitchers are going to be more likely to throw fastballs to middle of this line up to keep him from stealing a base every time. And this lineup can KILL fastballs. So that's the benefit of having him leadoff. But having said that, I don't know who you would take out of the lineup right now to give him that spot and I don't think I would want to throw him out there at leadoff right away, I'd probably want him hitting 9th and prove he can get on base and then move him up to the one spot. But I don't know where you would want him to play and I don't know who I would sit in favor of Owens right now. If Owens were a second baseman, this problem would be solved!
There is absolutely no rational reason on the planet to assume Jerry Owens would get on base at a 400 clip over an extended period. It is a hypothetical in the way that saying "If Jose Contreras learns to shoot laser beams out of his eyes as he pitches he will win the Cy Young award" would be a possibility.

MikeKreevich
04-25-2008, 01:48 PM
"If Owens was 100% healthy would he be back at leadoff or are the Sox going to stick with Swisher at leadoff?"
No. If Owens is called up he might get spot starts and bat ninth.
"The White Sox would be better off if Crede had Fields' speed or Fields had Crede's glove."
I doubt Fields could beat Thome in a foot race.
"I'd like an outfield of Nick, Jerry and Jermaine"
Oh yeah. Jerry for Carlos.
"LF- Quentin
CF- Anderson
RF- Swisher"
Maybe if Dye is on the DL.

Frater Perdurabo
04-25-2008, 02:35 PM
LF- Quentin
CF- Anderson
RF- Swisher

I'd put Swisher in let and Quentin in right.

FedEx227
04-25-2008, 03:19 PM
I'd put Swisher in let and Quentin in right.

True, true based on strength of arm Quentin is a born RF.

WhiteSox5187
04-25-2008, 03:32 PM
Ok, here's a question, if Owens can show he can get on at a .350 OBP clip, would you guys want him leading off and move Swish down in the order?

FedEx227
04-25-2008, 03:40 PM
Ok, here's a question, if Owens can show he can get on at a .350 OBP clip, would you guys want him leading off and move Swish down in the order?

If he can hit at a .350 OBP clip and actually learn how to play CF and improve his 9-year old girl arm. Then yes, yes I'd be fine with that.

Craig Grebeck
04-25-2008, 08:01 PM
Not at the expense of Quentin. That's a terrible idea.

Tragg
04-25-2008, 08:54 PM
If Owens was 100% healthy would he be back at leadoff or are the Sox going to stick with Swisher at leadoff?

The Sox have had success with Swisher leading off, but to me the best line up would be with Owens leading off and in center, Swisher down in the order playing left, Quintin off the bench and Anderson sent down.
i.e. Bench Quentin for slap hitting Owens? Come on.

Frater Perdurabo
04-25-2008, 08:57 PM
Ok, here's a question, if Owens can show he can get on at a .350 OBP clip, would you guys want him leading off and move Swish down in the order?

If Dye or Quentin were to get hurt, or if Paulie were to get traded or hurt (meaning Swisher would play first), I probably still would keep Swisher at leadoff and have Owens bat ninth. That puts Swisher in a position where is OBP is still ahead of of the thumpers, but also in an RBI position when Owens is on base ahead of him.

Daver
04-25-2008, 09:00 PM
If Dye or Quentin were to get hurt, or if Paulie were to get traded or hurt (meaning Swisher would play first), I probably still would keep Swisher at leadoff and have Owens bat ninth. That puts Swisher in a position where is OBP is still ahead of of the thumpers, but also in an RBI position when Owens is on base ahead of him.

Did Jerry learn how to get hit by a pitch all of a sudden?

Tragg
04-25-2008, 09:01 PM
Ok, here's a question, if Owens can show he can get on at a .350 OBP clip, would you guys want him leading off and move Swish down in the order?
If he could hit .370 OBP I'd use him a lot.

If he could play 2B, his current credentials would be more than adequate.

Is Dye hurt?

Frater Perdurabo
04-25-2008, 09:26 PM
Did Jerry learn how to get hit by a pitch all of a sudden?

I don't know. I was just responding to the hypothetical (some would say hyperbolic) scenario posed in this thread.

:shrug:

WhiteSox5187
04-25-2008, 10:22 PM
If he could hit .370 OBP I'd use him a lot.

If he could play 2B, his current credentials would be more than adequate.

Is Dye hurt?
He's listed as day to day, but the only way Owens comes up is if Dye goes on the DL. I'd move CQ to right and Owens to left. Swish stays in CF...I'd also have Owens start off batting 9th, and if he shows he can get on a lot I'd move him up in the order and Swish could bat fifth.

Mohoney
04-27-2008, 04:11 AM
I'd put Swisher in left and Quentin in right.

Either way is fine. Basically, I think it could be interchangeable depending on who we're playing that day and who is expected to get more total chances. I would want Quentin to get more total chances than Swisher because of his better arm. Then again, an argument could be made not to mess with a young player's comfort level while he's playing well, and then Quentin would stay in LF.

russ99
04-27-2008, 06:42 AM
If he could hit .370 OBP I'd use him a lot.

If he could play 2B, his current credentials would be more than adequate.

Is Dye hurt?

Yup groin injury. Where's all the hand-wringing and name calling like Pods and Owens? Oh, I forgot, he's a power hitter...

BTW: Ozzie's mentioned moving Swisher down the order a few times this weekend as he's in a bit of a slump.

Combined with Dye's injury the only way that happens is if Dye needs to be DL'd and Owens comes up to leadoff. Neither Anderson or Ramirez should be leading off and Cabrera has his own struggles.

I don't think they call up Owens and send down one of Anderson/Ramirez right now, especially since #! send-down contender BA's bought himself some time with last night's game.

Craig Grebeck
04-27-2008, 10:54 AM
Yup groin injury. Where's all the hand-wringing and name calling like Pods and Owens? Oh, I forgot, he's a good baseball player...

fixed

Tragg
04-27-2008, 11:05 AM
Yup groin injury. Where's all the hand-wringing and name calling like Pods and Owens? Oh, I forgot, he's a power hitter...

BTW: Ozzie's mentioned moving Swisher down the order a few times this weekend as he's in a bit of a slump.

Combined with Dye's injury the only way that happens is if Dye needs to be DL'd and Owens comes up to leadoff. Neither Anderson or Ramirez should be leading off and Cabrera has his own struggles.

I don't think they call up Owens and send down one of Anderson/Ramirez right now, especially since #! send-down contender BA's bought himself some time with last night's game.
No, the difference is that Dye is a good hitter; do you seriously suggest that Owens or Podesednik is in Dye's class?
There are plenty of non-power hitters that are good hitters - those with .370+ obps. Owens isn't a good hitter and isn't a good defender.

If Owens gets inserted in the lineup, it will probably be like Uribe in the lineup: he isn't leaving.

As such, I hope we keep him in AAA. Kenny's instincts re Uribe were right - waive him to keep him out of the lineup (that idea was scrapped when Richar got hurt).

Dan Mega
04-27-2008, 01:09 PM
i.e. Bench Quentin for slap hitting Owens? Come on.

Yep. Owens could be an asset off the bench and occasionally backing up TCQ in left or whoever is playing center. I like his speed and base stealing capabilities. At the plate...not so much.