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View Full Version : Lee may be platooned


HawkDJ
04-29-2002, 04:41 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/showcase/cs-020428soxnotes.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Looks like we will see Rowand and Liefer more often.

Soxboyrob
04-29-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2

Looks like we will see Rowand and Liefer more often.

Woo Hoo!!! Oh happy day.

hold2dibber
04-29-2002, 05:02 PM
This makes sense to me only if it is a motivational ploy to get Carlos working harder/listening to coaches. He has, in my opinion, much more upside offensively than either Liefer or Rowand (though I do like both of them) and the season is still young. Plus, if you want to pick up a starting pitcher in trade, Lee may be the best/most replaceable (without a huge drop off) option you have for trade bait - but his trade value plummets if he's not playing much. I say ride it out a bit longer, and only make this move if the offensive stays in a slumber for more than a few more games (in which case you've got to shake things up).

PaleHoseGeorge
04-29-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/showcase/cs-020428soxnotes.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Looks like we will see Rowand and Liefer more often.

I read this article in today's paper, and couldn't understand Manuel's or Williams' logic. I'm assuming they talked to the reporters hoping to light a fire under Lee and get him to hit better.

Lee works cheap, has improved immensely in the field, and any shortcomings at the plate are not justified for his potential or what he has actually achieved as a big leaguer.

Benching Lee makes no sense for about six different reasons, not the least of which is the team is leading the league in offensive production with Lee batting #7. If this isn't a bluff, then Manuel and Williams are both idiots, and ought to be run out of town on a rail for gross incompetence.

:KW :jerry
"Just when Sox Fans are willing to declare us geniuses, we prove them all wrong!"

Soxboyrob
04-29-2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Lee may be the best/most replaceable (without a huge drop off) option you have for trade bait - but his trade value plummets if he's not playing much. I say ride it out a bit longer, and only make this move if the offensive stays in a slumber for more than a few more games (in which case you've got to shake things up).

I wonder how much trade value Lee has anymore. Certainly, someone would take one look at him and figure they could make something of him w/ some coaching, but I think his value is already falling. Playing him also stands to lower his trade value, since it might just confirm that the second half of last year wasn't an abberation.

mack10zie
04-29-2002, 05:14 PM
Personally I am far from giving up on Carlos this early in the season. I honestly think Carlos can and perhaps will be the type of player who can help to carry our offense when a few of the other guys struggle. I say he's got to keep playing, at least for a while, and hopefully he'll start to at least show signs of being the hitter we've all seen flashes of in the past. If he does his trade value will go up or we keep him as a productive member of the lineup, and if he doesn't his trade value will go down, but it will not lower too much more than it will if he is just sitting on the bench doing nothing.

RedPinStripes
04-29-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/showcase/cs-020428soxnotes.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Looks like we will see Rowand and Liefer more often.

I was hoping to read about him being traded today. :(:

Soxboyrob
04-29-2002, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

Lee works cheap, has improved immensely in the field, and any shortcomings at the plate are not justified for his potential or what he has actually achieved as a big leaguer.

Benching Lee makes no sense for about six different reasons, not the least of which is the team is leading the league in offensive production with Lee batting #7. If this isn't a bluff, then Manuel and Williams are both idiots, and ought to be run out of town on a rail for gross incompetence.


I'm not sure that I follow the "works cheap" angle, since the guys that they're talking about using in his place also work cheap. His glovework has been immensely better so far this season, but his throwing (at least 25% of the overall defensive package) has been completely putrid. On several occasions he's hurt the Sox in a situation where even an average throw possibly/probably retires the runner. Not sure that Rowand or Lief are any better in this respect, but they can't be any worse.

The fact that the club is leading the league in hitting has nothing to do w/ Lee hitting #7, IMO. In fact, I'd say they're doing well in spite of CLee. They're also leading the league w/ Royce hitting 9th and I'd give anything to see a guy batting seventh and ninth that thinks about the team more than refusing to take a walk and trying to hit a homer in every situation. It's hard to imagine that this is anything more than just a plan to get some more PT for Rowand/Lief without really removing Lee from the fulltime role as our rightfielder. What would be really nice would be if they could convince Lee to quit wildly hacking at pitches out of the zone w/ no respect for the count and start being a bit more selective and taking pitches the other way....the CLee of '99 and '00 perhaps, with a few more bases on balls?

Foulke You
04-29-2002, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


I'm not sure that I follow the "works cheap" angle, since the guys that they're talking about using in his place also work cheap. His glovework has been immensely better so far this season, but his throwing (at least 25% of the overall defensive package) has been completely putrid. On several occasions he's hurt the Sox in a situation where even an average throw possibly/probably retires the runner. Not sure that Rowand or Lief are any better in this respect, but they can't be any worse.

The fact that the club is leading the league in hitting has nothing to do w/ Lee hitting #7, IMO. In fact, I'd say they're doing well in spite of CLee. They're also leading the league w/ Royce hitting 9th and I'd give anything to see a guy batting seventh and ninth that thinks about the team more than refusing to take a walk and trying to hit a homer in every situation. It's hard to imagine that this is anything more than just a plan to get some more PT for Rowand/Lief without really removing Lee from the fulltime role as our rightfielder. What would be really nice would be if they could convince Lee to quit wildly hacking at pitches out of the zone w/ no respect for the count and start being a bit more selective and taking pitches the other way....the CLee of '99 and '00 perhaps, with a few more bases on balls?

I think you hit it on the head SoxBoyRob. I don't believe that the club's offensive production has a lot to do with CLee hitting 7th and has everything to do with Lofton, Durham, and Paulie hitting out of their minds the 1st couple of weeks. Carlos has to get out of that "never met a pitch I didn't like" mentality. Pitchers feed on this and have figured out that Carlos swings at everything near the zone. He has to take more walks so that pitchers will stop throwing him junk. Lee is especially a sucker for the high fastball which he never fails to either foul off or completely miss.

I for one would like to see Liefer get more PT. He's a left handed power threat and has shown development the past couple of years. Last year we saw Jeff lay off the low and away pitch and start working some hitting counts and walks. He had the best HR to AB ratio on the team. I also have seen him take the ball into the opposite field this year which is new for Jeff because he's primarily a pull hitter. If there is a knock on Jeff, it is his speed or lack thereof which means he doesn't cover a lot of real estate in LF. I still think the Sox need to take a long look at this guy as your everyday LF because a Left handed, more patient power #7 hitter could make a deadly offensive attack even more fearsome.

voodoochile
04-29-2002, 06:08 PM
Keep playing Lee, see if he works his way out of it. If not, package him with some other players to get a pitcher and bring up Borchard...

RedPinStripes
04-29-2002, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Keep playing Lee, see if he works his way out of it. If not, package him with some other players to get a pitcher and bring up Borchard...

Borchard now? I think he should stay down till Sept. especially with the injury . If the Sox trade away at the break like I think they will, Borchard might be here at the break.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-29-2002, 06:14 PM
Whooosh!

That was my point sailing right over your head.

The fact the Sox are leading the league in offense proves Lee's hitting slump isn't hurting the ballclub.

Exactly what problem are you guys trying to fix benching Lee? Do you think the Sox will lead the league in offense if Lee is benched? Oops--they already are. You think the offense will improve without Lee in the line up? Oops--it already is the best in the league.

Use your head, people.

(now waiting breathlessly for someone to claim Liefer and Rowand make up the difference with their defense).

What is Lee's trade value? Roughly twice whatever Rowand and Liefer represent as a package deal. Those guys have no upside; Lee does.

RedPinStripes
04-29-2002, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Whooosh!

That was my point sailing right over your head.

The fact the Sox are leading the league in offense proves Lee's hitting slump isn't hurting the ballclub.

Exactly what problem are you guys trying to fix benching Lee? Do you think the Sox will lead the league in offense if Lee is benched? Oops--they already are. You think the offense will improve without Lee in the line up? Oops--it already is the best in the league.

Use your head, people.

(now waiting breathlessly for someone to claim Liefer and Rowand make up the difference with their defense).

What is Lee's trade value? Roughly twice whatever Rowand and Liefer represent as a package deal. Those guys have no upside; Lee does.

I'd like to see him play if they're going to trade him as we talked about before. I've just got a real problem with dumbass caballo and see no room for him next year if Lofton stays.

Soxboyrob
04-29-2002, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The fact the Sox are leading the league in offense proves Lee's hitting slump isn't hurting the ballclub.
..........Use your head, people.

What is Lee's trade value? Roughly twice whatever Rowand and Liefer represent as a package deal. Those guys have no upside; Lee does.

Not hurting the ballclub? I don't really get it. Are you saying that as long as the Sox as a team are hitting great and scoring a lot of runs that Lee isn't hurting us? I mean, if he continues to slump and the slump hypothetically lasts all year, isn't he hurting us? It just seems like your saying we're already a good hitting club so we shouldn't try to improve. I know we're already leading the league in hitting but with our pitching, why not lead the league in hitting by an even bigger margin, so to increase our chances of winning? All I know is that the more good hitters we have in the lineup, the better chance we have of winning games. Right now, Carlos is not a good hitter and he is not getting on base nearly enough to justify being considered an everyday player in a great offensive lineup. Are either Rowand or Lief the answer? Possibly not, but I'm willing to find out.

And on what grounds can you just flat out assure me that Lee is the guy with the upside in this equation and Rowand and Liefer are not? Lee has been getting steadily worse as a hitter, showing absolutely no patience or hitting eye at the plate. The Sox have a chance to actually do something this year, i.e. win their division, win a round of playoffs, win a pennant, contend for a world series. In that overall equation, upside is for the birds and actual production wins out. I want the guy playing that will do the most for us now.

RedPinStripes
04-29-2002, 10:22 PM
And on what grounds can you just flat out assure me that Lee is the guy with the upside in this equation and Rowand and Liefer are not? Lee has been getting steadily worse as a hitter, showing absolutely no patience or hitting eye at the plate. The Sox have a chance to actually do something this year, i.e. win their division, win a round of playoffs, win a pennant, contend for a world series. In that overall equation, upside is for the birds and actual production wins out. I want the guy playing that will do the most for us now. I've been trying to get people to give Rowand a chance around here. It won't work. :(:

PaleHoseGeorge
04-29-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Not hurting the ballclub? I don't really get it....

Okay, for the third time...

Whatever Carlos Lee isn't doing on behalf of the offense, you would be hard-pressed to point to ANYTHING that has weakened the team's efforts at the plate. That's because, SBR, the Sox lead the league in offense.

What is so hard to understand about that?

Go ahead and hang yourself. Make the case for why you aren't satisfied with the best offense in the league. Explain why the key to winning a championship in your corner of the universe is making the Sox into a team that scores runs at a rate even greater over every other team in the league, presumably with Lee benched.

Be careful. If your solution to the absurd problem you've identified is to fix it with Aaron Rowand and Jeff Liefer, some of us are going to have a real hard time not laughing at you.

Rowand and Liefer aren't worth sh*t in trade compared to Lee. That ought to be proof enough why benching Lee after five weeks of baseball is foolish if not outright incompetent. And if you think benching him doesn't hurt his trade value even more than simply letting him play every day, all I can say in reply is "Thank God you aren't the GM," because you are flat wrong on that point.

Is that clear enough for you?

Soxboyrob
04-29-2002, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
[B]Okay, for the third time...
Whatever Carlos Lee isn't doing on behalf of the offense, you would be hard-pressed to point to ANYTHING that has weakened the team's efforts at the plate. That's because, SBR, the Sox lead the league in offense.[B]

Ok, so you're also saying that if Clayton continues to hit .200 and not get any walks, that's ok too, since we lead the league in hitting? I don't have a problem with the Sox overall hitting as a team, but feel that if there is a weak link in the chain, it's at the #7 and #9 spot, not to mention the #3 spot, but that's a discussion for another day.

What is so hard to understand about that?

Go ahead and hang yourself. Make the case for why you aren't satisfied with the best offense in the league. Explain why the key to winning a championship in your corner of the universe is making the Sox into a team that scores runs at a rate even greater over every other team in the league, presumably with Lee benched.

Again, I don't necessarily want Lee benched so much as to share a bit of time w/ some of the other hitters, to see if we can either catch lightning in a bottle w/ one of them or light a small fire under Lee's rear end. Seems like a win-win situation to me. Your justification that "since the team is doing well with Lee, Lee must be OK" doesn't fly with me. Nothing more, nothing less. If that hangs me, so be it. Your analogy doesn't apply to real life for me and for many others. I always want everything to improve, no matter how good it is. If I could bat someone better than Konerko in the number 5 spot, I'd do it. If I'm a millionaire and have a chance to be a multimillionaire, I'd do it. If I have a better leadoff man than Lofton, I play him over Lofton and either bench Lofton or move him down in the lineup.

Be careful. If your solution to the absurd problem you've identified is to fix it with Aaron Rowand and Jeff Liefer, some of us are going to have a real hard time not laughing at you.

Laugh all you want, George. Don't you think that there are some people laughing at your justification of giving CLee a free pass? Before you laugh, I suggest you carefully look at the turdlike stats that CLee has posted for the past 2/3 of a season. They're painful to look at. They're Claytonlike. No, wait...in the last 2/3 of a season, Royce has been better than CLee. I didn't say to trade Carlos and his hall of fame upside. Again, I'd just like to see if someone else could do better than he. Wouldn't take much.

Rowand and Liefer aren't worth sh*t in trade compared to Lee. That ought to be proof enough why benching Lee after five weeks of baseball is foolish if not outright incompetent.
Is that clear enough for you?

I don't give a damn about trade value. Trade value doesn't win games. I want to win right now with the best players we have. I'm tired of waiting. Win now, baby.

voodoochile
04-29-2002, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


I don't give a damn about trade value. Trade value doesn't win games. I want to win right now with the best players we have. I'm tired of waiting. Win now.

ummm.... they have been... I understand your point about wanting the best team on the field, but Rowand and Leifer are NOT better than Lee from an overall perspective.

Playing Lee isn't hurting the Sox - can you name a single loss from this last weekend where Lee's bat cost the Sox the game? No - not even close. Before that, the Sox were so hot it was moot to discuss making a change - playing Lee or not it would have made no difference.

Now, Add in PHG's analysis about trade value and the obvious answer is play Lee until he PROVES he sucks or we can trade him (or he becomes the next Magglio). Benching him halves his trade value - and like it or not, that is part of the equation. You say you want to win now - do you mean April, or this year? Maybe Lee will get hot enough to cause some team to throw a veteran starter at us and that could mean a pennant on the South Side and then, they can try your boys Leifer and Rowand or bring up Borchard, or move Manos to left and bring up Crede. The options are nearly endless, but none of them should be taken until absolutely necessary and right now they aren't, because last time I checked, the Sox were a game in first and coming home...

PaleHoseGeorge
04-29-2002, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
I don't give a damn about trade value. Trade value doesn't win games. I want to win right now with the best players we have. I'm tired of waiting. Win now.

You're right, I am laughing. Laughing at all of this. There is NOTHING to respond to here. You can't even articulate a good reason why there is even a problem in LF, let alone why Rowand or Liefer should play ahead of Lee.

Why don't you just go on a date with Aaron Rowand and get it over with, okay.

RedPinStripes
04-30-2002, 12:26 AM
No - not even close. Before that, the Sox were so hot it was moot to discuss making a change - playing Lee or not it would have made no difference.

:ass
"You mean mute right and not moot?"

RedPinStripes
04-30-2002, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



Why don't you just go on a date with Aaron Rowand and get it over with, okay.

His wife may have a problem with that. :D:

MisterB
04-30-2002, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Whatever Carlos Lee isn't doing on behalf of the offense, you would be hard-pressed to point to ANYTHING that has weakened the team's efforts at the plate. That's because, SBR, the Sox lead the league in offense.

What is so hard to understand about that?

I'm not particularly for benching Lee, but do you honestly think that Konerko, Alomar, Lofton and Durham are going to keep hitting .370, .362, .347 & .342 (respectively) for the entire season? Not bloody likely. These four are hitting out of their minds right now, but at some point their production is going to come back down to earth. And at that time we're going to need better than Lee's .233, Thomas' .250 and Valentin's .218. And I'd like to see those three get it together sooner rather then later.

Soxboyrob
04-30-2002, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

You're right, I am laughing. Laughing at all of this. There is NOTHING to respond to here. You can't even articulate a good reason why there is even a problem in LF, let alone why Rowand or Liefer should play ahead of Lee.



What's to articulate? Lee has been horrible this year. Lee was horrible for the second half of last season. His overall numbers for 2000 were ok, at best. He has no idea what the strike zone is. He gets no walks. He creates a TON of outs for the Sox in exchange for the run production he brings, which is barely above Royce Clayton level at this point. He sucks in the outfield and has one of the worst and least accurate throwing arms I've ever seen on an outfielder. If you can't see that this is a "problem" in leftfield, then I'm never going to make any sense to you anyway. We're winning IN SPITE of the goof playing leftfield and batting 7th. I hope the guy gets hot and proves me wrong and you right. I'd like nothing more.

As for upside and trade value, that stuff means nothing to a team trying to win it all this year. Hell, Borch has more upside than Lofton...possibly more trade value too. Bring him up and put him in centerfield. Put Harris and his better upside at 2nd base while you're at it.

Feel free to continue to condescend to me with your gospel.

Soxboyrob
04-30-2002, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


ummm.... they have been... I understand your point about wanting the best team on the field, but Rowand and Leifer are NOT better than Lee from an overall perspective.

Playing Lee isn't hurting the Sox - can you name a single loss from this last weekend where Lee's bat cost the Sox the game? No - not even close. Before that, the Sox were so hot it was moot to discuss making a change - playing Lee or not it would have made no difference.



Name a single game? No...that's subjective. It's not about any certain game. It's about preparing your team to have the best chance to win. If we've lost a game by one or two runs and Lee didn't contribute offensively, then his bat may very well have cost us the game.

And how is it that Lee is better than anyone, much less Rowand or Lief, from an overall perspective? Lee has just plain sucked for a while now. I don't get this love for the guy. He has potential. Fine. How good can he be? Sammy Sosa good? Maggs good? Frank Good? He has no frigging concept of the strike zone. He'll never be a really good hitter until he gets one. Is something going to get him from bad eye to good eye?

Soxboyrob
04-30-2002, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by MisterB


I'm not particularly for benching Lee, but do you honestly think that Konerko, Alomar, Lofton and Durham are going to keep hitting .370, .362, .347 & .342 (respectively) for the entire season? Not bloody likely. These four are hitting out of their minds right now, but at some point their production is going to come back down to earth. And at that time we're going to need better than Lee's .233, Thomas' .250 and Valentin's .218. And I'd like to see those three get it together sooner rather then later.

All great points. Are we going to just blast teams out of the water all year? What happens we aren't anymore? Guys like Paulie, Lofton, Maggs and Ray are masking the sorry performances of guys like Royce, Lee, Frank and Valentin. They won't remain on fire forever. I'd like to be properly prepared when they start to return to earth, like they did in Oakland.

duke of dorwood
04-30-2002, 12:20 PM
Bat Lee ahead of Manos. Make him feel he's not at the bottom of the order.

voodoochile
04-30-2002, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Bat Lee ahead of Manos. Make him feel he's not at the bottom of the order.

It would also give him more protection than he is currently getting. Teams might throw him a few more fastballs if they had to face Manos and not MJ/Sandy and then Royce... Would you pitch to Lee in the current set up?

Paulwny
04-30-2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


It would also give him more protection than he is currently getting. Teams might throw him a few more fastballs if they had to face Manos and not MJ/Sandy and then Royce... Would you pitch to Lee in the current set up?

To break B. Williams out of his slump the yankmees are batting him 2nd so he'll get to see more fastballs.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-30-2002, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
It would also give him more protection than he is currently getting. Teams might throw him a few more fastballs if they had to face Manos and not MJ/Sandy and then Royce... Would you pitch to Lee in the current set up?

Manuel put Valentin at #6 to break up all the righty bats in the middle of the line up, and leave Lee with a comfortable spot where he might succeed towards the bottom of the order. While a good strategy, so far it hasn't worked out for either player.

Of course this hasn't prevented the team's offense from going absolutely bonkers the past month. It's nice to know two proven hitters are overdue to break out and contribute when the others inevitably come back to Earth.

...But try telling that to some others around here.

:crossdresser
"Aaron Rowand, come here you sweet *****!"

voodoochile
04-30-2002, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


To break B. Williams out of his slump the yankmees are batting him 2nd so he'll get to see more fastballs.

Wouldn't work for Lee. He needs more plate discipline - something BW has in abundance. PHG is right - they made this move to break up the string of righties - but it isn't working. Probably best to leave it alone and see what happens...

Paulwny
04-30-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Wouldn't work for Lee. He needs more plate discipline - something BW has in abundance. PHG is right - they made this move to break up the string of righties - but it isn't working. Probably best to leave it alone and see what happens...

I agree, sorry, I was referring to your post of Lee seeing more fastballs batting in front of Manos. Totally agree not batting Lee 2nd. Similar to the yankmees finding a spot for Williams to see more fast balls, they picked the no. 2 hole.

Soxboyrob
04-30-2002, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

Of course this hasn't prevented the team's offense from going absolutely bonkers the past month. It's nice to know two proven hitters are overdue to break out and contribute when the others inevitably come back to Earth.

...But try telling that to some others around here.



I pray to the baseball gods that you are right about certain guys being overdue (Frank, Lee, Jose) instead of just being over the hill, inept, or on the downward slide of their overall career. If these guys get hot and do what's either expected of them or start to live up to their potential, there'll be nobody happier than I. I might even publicly proclaim George to be the most knowledgeable poster in the baseball universe while in my schoolgirl-like state of giddiness. May all of your proclamations be 100% true and mine be the bastion of foolishness.

Foulke You
04-30-2002, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


What's to articulate? Lee has been horrible this year. Lee was horrible for the second half of last season. His overall numbers for 2000 were ok, at best. He has no idea what the strike zone is. He gets no walks. He creates a TON of outs for the Sox in exchange for the run production he brings, which is barely above Royce Clayton level at this point. He sucks in the outfield and has one of the worst and least accurate throwing arms I've ever seen on an outfielder. If you can't see that this is a "problem" in leftfield, then I'm never going to make any sense to you anyway. We're winning IN SPITE of the goof playing leftfield and batting 7th. I hope the guy gets hot and proves me wrong and you right. I'd like nothing more.

As for upside and trade value, that stuff means nothing to a team trying to win it all this year. Hell, Borch has more upside than Lofton...possibly more trade value too. Bring him up and put him in centerfield. Put Harris and his better upside at 2nd base while you're at it.

Feel free to continue to condescend to me with your gospel.


I have to back up SoxBoyRob here. I don't agree with the whole Lee isn't hurting us because the team is leading the league in offense theory. That is like saying that Jim Parque didn't hurt us in Oakland because our E.R.A. was 4th in the league entering the A's series. Team stats and personal stats are apples and oranges and there is a reason they are separated.

Plus, has anyone seen enough of Liefer and Rowand to really make a comment like "they suck compared to Lee". Carlos Lee has seen more playing time then the Rowand and Liefer combined. In that time I've seen a power RBI hitter with great potential but have no patience at the plate and rightfully earn the name "butcher" in Left Field. Lee hasn't been productive for us since June of 2001. Since then the American League has adjusted to him and he hasn't made any adjustments to improve.

Liefer has shown me improving plate discipline, tremendous HR potential, and adequate defense in his minimal appearances in 2001 and 2002. Aaron Rowand has shown me great speed, tremendous hustle, and superior glove work in Left Field in his appearances. Are these the traits of players who "suck" compared to Lee? The trade value thing means nothing. All I care about is what they can do for the Sox.

Don't get me wrong, I like Caballo but since June of 2001 he hasn't looked sharp. His slump last year was blamed on a sore wrist. His wrist isn't hurting now and he looks the same at the plate. This team is built to win now. If benching Lee for a while and Liefer or Rowand can help us win now, as in the 2002 season, then so be it.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-30-2002, 01:16 PM
Don't flatter yourself, Soxboy. I'm not concerned with passing whatever baseball knowledge test you might set up, and I suspect there aren't any other Sox Fans here who care to, either.

THE_HOOTER
04-30-2002, 01:24 PM
I don't agree with the idea that since Lee is not hurting the offense leave well enough alone.

He is not contributing at all. A few days off might do him some good. With this homestand we can't continue to send Lee out there against these two staffs. They will eat him alive.

Lee does have more upside. He has produced consistently at the highest level, and delivered in the clutch. With his size and bat speed, he is an attractive player.

With the way George is defending him, George must think he is an attractive player too! :D:

THE_HOOTER
04-30-2002, 01:25 PM
Sorry George, I just couldn't resist!!!!!!!! :smile:

FarWestChicago
04-30-2002, 01:48 PM
Wow, this is a great idea. Let's get JM to start mindlessly tinkering with the lineup on a daily basis. It worked really well in April and May of 2001!

cheeses_h_rice
04-30-2002, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


I pray to the baseball gods that you are right about certain guys being overdue (Frank, Lee, Jose) instead of just being over the hill, inept, or on the downward slide of their overall career. If these guys get hot and do what's either expected of them or start to live up to their potential, there'll be nobody happier than I. I might even publicly proclaim George to be the most knowledgeable poster in the baseball universe while in my schoolgirl-like state of giddiness. May all of your proclamations be 100% true and mine be the bastion of foolishness.

May I ask why so many people here think that Frank is on the decline? OK, so he's hitting .250 after 25 games. But keep in mind that:

-Frank is not even 34 years old yet
-He's in incredible physical shape
-He's playing his first MLB games in a year
-He's still tinkering with his stance and swing

Why would you assume just based on 25 games that he's lost it? Let's try and remember what a proven hitter this man is when he's healthy; with the exceptions of his poor start in 2001, Frank has ALWAYS produced when he isn't injured (yes, except for the '00 playoffs).

Let's give him some more time to work out the kinks, please.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-30-2002, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
...Why would you assume just based on 25 games that he [Frank Thomas] has lost it?

Are you kidding? It's the exact same reason why Aaron Rowand should be the Sox leftfielder after 123 major league at-bats.

To hear some of these people tell it, first place just isn't good enough.

:crossdresser
"Our offense needs fixing!"

Someday down the line, s/he may have a point. But now????

:crossdresser
"If the Cubs ever heat up, I'll go back to what truly interests me."

:lynch&mcfail
"Don't hold your breath."

moochpuppy
04-30-2002, 02:09 PM
As long as we're complaining about players here's my two cents.......I really think that JM should bench Konerko. I mean he should have more RBI's than he already has. There just have been too many opportunities that have gone by were he didn't get the runs in. Sure, he's leading the league but he should have more.

Soxboyrob
04-30-2002, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Don't flatter yourself, Soxboy. I'm not concerned with passing whatever baseball knowledge test you might set up, and I suspect there aren't any other Sox Fans here who care to, either.

I'm not sure what this really means. I must have missed something in the translation. Baseball knowledge test? This is a battle of opinions in my estimation....not a battle of knowledge. In fact, I'll bet you and I and most other posters here agree with some simple things:

Lee has hit poorly since June 2001.
Lee has more upside than Rowand and Lief.
Lee also has more trade value than the aforementioned pair.
Lee is not a good fielder nor a good thrower, but has improved since last year.
Neither Rowand nor Lief have proven to be stellar in the field either.
Rowand has hit well since his call-up.
Rowand has shown good plate discipline.
Lee has not shown good plate discipline.
Liefer has shown flashes of being a productive power hitter, especially vs. righties, since his call-up.

After that, it's all just a matter of who you prefer to play, considering the team's situation and circumstances. Nothing more. I can live with agreeing to disagree. A battle of knowledge this certainly is not.

Soxboyrob
04-30-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice


May I ask why so many people here think that Frank is on the decline? OK, so he's hitting .250 after 25 games. But keep in mind that:

-Frank is not even 34 years old yet
-He's in incredible physical shape
-He's playing his first MLB games in a year
-He's still tinkering with his stance and swing

Why would you assume just based on 25 games that he's lost it? Let's try and remember what a proven hitter this man is when he's healthy; with the exceptions of his poor start in 2001, Frank has ALWAYS produced when he isn't injured (yes, except for the '00 playoffs).

Let's give him some more time to work out the kinks, please.

It's a little early to consider him "done." And you're right about all four of your bulletpoints, ESPECIALLY the one about him tinkering. What's been most disconcerting about Frank is seeing him not have quality at-bats. I can live with the outs he's making, some in crucial situations, but it would sure be nice to see some of them be a hard hit ball or something. I miss the good old days where even Frank's outs would nearly kill somebody. Frank looks to me like he's in more of a mental funk than a physical one. Maybe he's guessing on pitches instead of just reacting.

Chisox353014
04-30-2002, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
As long as we're complaining about players here's my two cents.......I really think that JM should bench Konerko. I mean he should have more RBI's than he already has. There just have been too many opportunities that have gone by were he didn't get the runs in. Sure, he's leading the league but he should have more.

No, no, you've got it all wrong. Konerko's having the best year of anybody on the team. So the more at-bats he gets the better, right? Put Konerko at leadoff! And stick Royce in the 2-hole. That ought to jump-start him.

BTW, what's the story with the gal in the Flubs hat? Did I miss something?

FarWestChicago
04-30-2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Chisox353014
BTW, what's the story with the gal in the Flubs hat? Did I miss something? That's our Crossdresser tag.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-30-2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Chisox353014
BTW, what's the story with the gal in the Flubs hat? Did I miss something?

The name of the tag is crossdresser. Is that a broad enough hint about "her"?

:)

cheeses_h_rice
04-30-2002, 03:39 PM
George and West, then I think it's only fair that I work up one of Jay Marriotti crossdressing and saying "Go Sox" as well, while he wears a Baby Bears hat, since as Voodoo pointed out, he seems to be gearing up to gradually sidle onto the Sox bandwagon this year.

I'll do it tonight, as I don't have Photoshop here at work.

moochpuppy
04-30-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



:crossdresser
"Our offense needs fixing!"



:ass

"Daddy?"

FarWestChicago
04-30-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
George and West, then I think it's only fair that I work up one of Jay Marriotti crossdressing and saying "Go Sox" as well, while he wears a Baby Bears hat, since as Voodoo pointed out, he seems to be gearing up to gradually sidle onto the Sox bandwagon this year.

I'll do it tonight, as I don't have Photoshop here at work. Works for me. :D:

voodoochile
04-30-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


The name of the tag is crossdresser. Is that a broad enough hint about "her"?

:)

Yeah, I got lucky. I was about to post a note saying "change my name to Aaron Rowand" after PHG's comment referring to "her" wanting to "play" with Aaron. I used the "quote" feature and as I was starting to type, I noticed the name of the tag...

Hey, with no further info, "she" looks good to me, but I admit that upon further review... it isn't for me...

I'm dying to see that moronotti tag... Think you can work up a lingerie outfit for Jay to wear, or would that officially make us all want to...

:chunks

cheeses_h_rice
04-30-2002, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I'm dying to see that moronotti tag... Think you can work up a lingerie outfit for Jay to wear


That depends; do they sell that sort of merchandise in the Flubbie online shop?


:moron

I'm a size 20, by the way.

:)

PaleHoseGeorge
04-30-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, I got lucky. I was about to post a note saying "change my name to Aaron Rowand" after PHG's comment referring to "her" wanting to "play" with Aaron. I used the "quote" feature and as I was starting to type, I noticed the name of the tag...

Yeah, we may have to modify the tag to make his/er identity a bit more obvious. S/he definitely has the act down!

Don't you ever wonder whatever happened to all the Flub trolls around here?

:crossdresser
"Work it girl! Work it!"

voodoochile
04-30-2002, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice


That depends; do they sell that sort of merchandise in the Flubbie online shop?


:moron

I'm a size 20, by the way.

:)

:crossdresser
"In your dreams, fatboy... More like a size 32..."

:iron
"tell 'em sweetheart. BTW, nice cubs you got there.... er... cubs hat that is..."

Cheryl
04-30-2002, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I'm dying to see that moronotti tag... Think you can work up a lingerie outfit for Jay to wear, or would that officially make us all want to...



I wonder if there is anywhere on the web you can view that portrait Dred Scott Thomas did of Mayor Washington in drag. If I remember it correctly, it could be....inspirational.

HawkDJ
04-30-2002, 06:25 PM
Carlos Lee will play in about a half hour vs. the Mariners.