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jabrch
04-20-2008, 11:44 AM
Who's the biggest disappointment so far in LA?

pierzynski07
04-20-2008, 12:06 PM
Can't complain about early production on a 1-3yr player. And Pierre isn't doing too bad with that line. At least it's somewhat close to the career numbers.

No question, Jones.

Jjav829
04-20-2008, 12:08 PM
Depends on how you define "bust." Pierre is a completely useless player for them right now. He's their 4th best outfielder, and Torre is simply having to find ways to get him playing time, at the expense of better players in Kemp and Ethier. And he's still locked up for 3 more years after this.

Martin has been bad, but he's making nothing. Plus, he's a good, young player.

Jones got off to a bad start, but he's 6 for his last 15 with his 1st HR yesterday, so he's started to turn it around. Plus he's only signed for 2 years.

Pierre wins. Or loses. Whichever...

jabrch
04-20-2008, 12:13 PM
Pierre wins. Or loses. Whichever...

He's hitting over 100 pts better than Jones, and making half the money.

Are you sure you'd rather sink 18mm per in Jones than 9mm per in Pierre?

I have no idea why they added Jones with Ethier and Kemp ready.

Jjav829
04-20-2008, 12:21 PM
He's hitting over 100 pts better than Jones, and making half the money.

Are you sure you'd rather sink 18mm per in Jones than 9mm per in Pierre?

I have no idea why they added Jones with Ethier and Kemp ready.

Because Juan Pierre blows.

And they desperately needed more power in their lineup. It's an easy decision. If Jones is bad, they can get rid of him after two years. They're stuck with Pierre for 3 more years after this.

And once again, they needed power. Last year Andruw Jones had the worst season of his career. He hit only 26 HRs. You know where that would have ranked on the Dodgers last season? 1st. By 6! The most HRs by a Dodger last year was 20 by Jeff Kent.

I know you're out on some mission to prove the Sox shouldn't have signed Jones, and that's fine. But really, I don't think many people wanted Jones anyway (or maybe I'm forgetting a huge outrage about the Sox missing out on Jones...there may have been a few people who wanted him signed, but there's always going to be a few people who want some player signed).

chisoxmike
04-20-2008, 03:41 PM
I don't really understand how you could consider Jones a bust after three weeks into the season.

Chicken Dinner
04-20-2008, 03:56 PM
It's a team effort. Take that Kevin Kennedy. :D:

JB98
04-20-2008, 04:12 PM
I voted for Pierre. Ask me later, and I might say Jones. But only three weeks into the year, it's a little early to call Jones a bad signing. He could still rebound and put up good numbers.

Pierre appears to be doing what he's always done. And what he always does is NEVER worth $9 million a year. Bad signing for LA.

santo=dorf
04-20-2008, 06:58 PM
I don't really understand how you could consider Jones a bust after three weeks into the season.
I know you're out on some mission to prove the Sox shouldn't have signed Jones, and that's fine.
That's how.

LA is stuck with Pierre for 5 years and $44 million. LA is stuck with Jones for 2 years and $36 million. Anybody with half a brain can see that the Jones contract, is much preferable than Pierre, however Jones brings higher expectation because he is a much better player.

jabrch also loves the fact that Pierre "hits" close to .300.

Tragg
04-20-2008, 07:24 PM
Juan Pierre - because they're stuck with him until - 2011? Ouch.

Railsplitter
04-20-2008, 08:14 PM
Jones.

BadBobbyJenks
04-20-2008, 10:51 PM
Who is Andrew?

:bandance:

PalehosePlanet
04-20-2008, 11:01 PM
It's easily Pierre; quite possibly one of the worst free agent signing of all time.

I don't see how people can can Andruw a bust after only 3 weeks. At the end of the season is when the call can be made.

Jason Schmidt, due to the injuries, is also a huge bust for LA.

FedEx227
04-21-2008, 12:22 AM
I don't consider Jones much of a bust because I believe he's been a **** player for awhile now, he let himself go physically and is still riding this notion that he was once a great CFer.

Pierre is doing what he always did, it's not his fault LA was stupid and paid him too much, he's never been anything.

Pierre career: .301/.348/.378
Pierre 2008: .294/.314/.353
Pierre 2007: .293/.331/.353

I'd really say neither is.

fquaye149
04-21-2008, 07:47 AM
I don't consider Jones much of a bust because I believe he's been a **** player for awhile now, he let himself go physically and is still riding this notion that he was once a great CFer.

Pierre is doing what he always did, it's not his fault LA was stupid and paid him too much, he's never been anything.

Pierre career: .301/.348/.378
Pierre 2008: .294/.314/.353
Pierre 2007: .293/.331/.353

I'd really say neither is.

He's still one of the best defensive CFers in baseball no matter how much WSIers claim he's "lazy" and "fat."

Not hitting real well though

Thome25
04-21-2008, 08:31 AM
Man am I glad the White Sox didn't pick up Andruw Jones. There were posters clamoring for the Sox to pick him up before they got Swisher.

Granted, it's still early and Jones could turn it around but, quite frankly I wouldn't want to be the team waiting for the turnaround.

I'm glad the White Sox didn't pick up Jones, Hunter, or Rowand for that matter and ended up with Swisher instead.

balke
04-21-2008, 08:35 AM
At least with Jones its over in 2 seasons. Pierre is the biggest bust because he is a bigger waste of money hogging a roster spot for a longer period of time.

Frater Perdurabo
04-21-2008, 09:34 AM
At least with Jones its over in 2 seasons. Pierre is the biggest bust because he is a bigger waste of money hogging a roster spot for a longer period of time.

Would you think Pierre was a "bigger waste of money hogging a roster spot" if he was being paid the league minimum or making less than $4M/year?

Pierre is a productive leadoff hitter. Blame the Dodgers for overpaying him, but he's not a waste of a roster spot.

Me making this argument does not negate the fact that I really like what Swisher is doing right now, and with Quentin there is no room for Pierre in the Sox OF.

soxinem1
04-21-2008, 10:20 AM
He's still one of the best defensive CFers in baseball no matter how much WSIers claim he's "lazy" and "fat."

Not hitting real well though

Andruw has definitely put on some excess pounds. And from the two games I've watched LAD play this year, his bat looks very slow.

Still, he is a guy who could hit 25-30+ HR in his sleep. His career batting AVG is not exactly stellar, but I'm sure he wasn't signed for him being a .300 hitter. He was signed to add a sorely need RH power hitter and give some better D in CF. As long as he does that, he will not be a bust.

Pierre, on the other hand, was a total waste of money for them, and they will have a tough time finding a way to unload him for the next four years.

fquaye149
04-21-2008, 10:21 AM
Andruw has definitely put on some excess pounds. And from the two games I've watched LAD play this year, his bat looks very slow.

Still, he is a guy who could hit 25-30+ HR in his sleep. His career batting AVG is not exactly stellar, but I'm sure he wasn't signed for him being a .300 hitter. He was signed to add a sorely need RH power hitter and give some better D in CF. As long as he does that, he will not be a bust.

Pierre, on the other hand, was a total waste of money for them, and they will have a tough time finding a way to unload him for the next four years.

I don't dispute that Jones has gained weight. But he still plays elite CF, that's all's I's is saying

doublem23
04-21-2008, 10:28 AM
I don't dispute that Jones has gained weight. But he still plays elite CF, that's all's I's is saying

IMO, you need to be able to throw the ball more than 20 feet before you can be labeled an "elite" defender.

VeeckAsInWreck
04-21-2008, 11:46 AM
From my years of fantasy baseball I can tell you from experience that Andruw Jones is one of the streakiest players there is. He's off to a cold start now, but wait until his bat heats up then he's gonna be good.

For me, Pierre has been the biggest bust and I could never figure out why they paid so much for a slap hitter. I know the saying goes that speed doesn't slump but Juan Pierre has found a way to debunk that statement.

balke
04-21-2008, 12:01 PM
Would you think Pierre was a "bigger waste of money hogging a roster spot" if he was being paid the league minimum or making less than $4M/year?

Pierre is a productive leadoff hitter. Blame the Dodgers for overpaying him, but he's not a waste of a roster spot.

Me making this argument does not negate the fact that I really like what Swisher is doing right now, and with Quentin there is no room for Pierre in the Sox OF.

That's not where I was going with my statement. But yeah, I do think he is the bigger bust than Jones. He's a below avg. fielder with no power and a .330 OBP. He's standing in Matt Kemp's spot and needs to get out of his way.

With Jones, he still has a power upside that might come to light when it heats up.

FedEx227
04-21-2008, 12:02 PM
IMO, you need to be able to throw the ball more than 20 feet before you can be labeled an "elite" defender.

Thank you.

daveeym
04-21-2008, 12:29 PM
Thank you.Andruw Jones can't throw the ball 20 ft?

daveeym
04-21-2008, 12:40 PM
Juan Pierre can't. I assume he can still cover some ground (I haven't seen him play all that much since he left the North Side), so he's got more than adequate range to play CF, but he has to have one of the worst OF arms in teh league right now. He cannot throw for ****.Yeah but the term elite was being used with Jones not pierre.

doublem23
04-21-2008, 12:42 PM
Yeah but the term elite was being used with Jones not pierre.

Yeah, I just noticed that... I made that first post before the morning coffee kicked in. :cool:

Anyways, Jones' arm would have to be better than Pierre's by default, but I think he's been living on his repuation as a good defender for a while. I admit that I haven't seen enough of Andruw Jones to make defnitive statements, but what I have seen is that he's just OK in the field now. Not great like he was, but better than your average Joe. Just OK.

Craig Grebeck
04-21-2008, 07:32 PM
Would you think Pierre was a "bigger waste of money hogging a roster spot" if he was being paid the league minimum or making less than $4M/year?

Pierre is a productive leadoff hitter. Blame the Dodgers for overpaying him, but he's not a waste of a roster spot.

Me making this argument does not negate the fact that I really like what Swisher is doing right now, and with Quentin there is no room for Pierre in the Sox OF.
Leadoff hitter is not a position. He's not a productive anything.

Frater Perdurabo
04-21-2008, 07:47 PM
Leadoff hitter is not a position. He's not a productive anything.

He's a more consistent, less injury-prone version of Pods. Last time I checked, the 2005 Sox won the World Series with Pods as their left fielder.

Hendu
04-21-2008, 07:49 PM
Leadoff hitter is not a position. He's not a productive anything.

He's not even productive leading off. His OBP is horrid for a guy that has absolutely no power. Fine, maybe he could be a productive pinch runner. :D:

Hendu
04-21-2008, 07:54 PM
He's a more consistent, less injury-prone version of Pods. Last time I checked, the 2005 Sox won the World Series with Pods as their left fielder.

Pierre's OBP hasn't approached anything considered respectable for a leadoff hitter since 2004. And the Dodgers don't have much power elsewhere to make up for his lack of power production as a corner outfielder - but his arm is too weak to play center.

Frater Perdurabo
04-21-2008, 07:59 PM
Pierre's OBP hasn't approached anything considered respectable for a leadoff hitter since 2004. And the Dodgers don't have much power elsewhere to make up for his lack of power production as a corner outfielder - but his arm is too weak to play center.

Is it Pierre's fault the Dodgers don't have any hitters who can hit for power?

I'm not saying he's an All-Star or a cornerstone player, but he is a useful and consistent hitter for average and base stealer who has started for a World Series winning team.

Are there better leadoff hitters? Yes! But there are worse leadoff hitters, too.

Hendu
04-21-2008, 08:04 PM
Is it Pierre's fault the Dodgers don't have any hitters who can hit for power?

I'm not saying he's an All-Star or a cornerstone player, but he is a useful and consistent hitter for average and base stealer who has started for a World Series winning team.

Are there better leadoff hitters? Yes! But there are worse leadoff hitters, too.

True, but it's not his fault that he's locked into that ridiculous contract either - yet it's still a factor. Juan Pierre as a 4th outfielder batting 8th and signed to a short-term deal for a couple mil is reasonable. As a starter hitting leadoff under his current contract, it's a huge mistake.

fquaye149
04-21-2008, 09:31 PM
Yeah, I just noticed that... I made that first post before the morning coffee kicked in. :cool:

Anyways, Jones' arm would have to be better than Pierre's by default, but I think he's been living on his repuation as a good defender for a while. I admit that I haven't seen enough of Andruw Jones to make defnitive statements, but what I have seen is that he's just OK in the field now. Not great like he was, but better than your average Joe. Just OK.

I don't think a whole lot of fielding metrics, but for whatever it's worth, Jones fielding metrics show that while he's definitely declined, he's still one of the best CF's in baseball. When you combine that with his reputation, and what you can see from watching him play, you've got to say he's probably still one of the best CF's in baseball.

I mean, at his prime, most baseball experts said he ranked among the greatest ever to play the most difficult position in baseball. EVER. Obviously, he's not going to live up to that past his prime, but even a "has-been" Andruw Jones is a great defensive CF

FedEx227
04-22-2008, 12:37 AM
He's a more consistent, less injury-prone version of Pods. Last time I checked, the 2005 Sox won the World Series with Pods as their left fielder.

Again with this garbage? Seriously White Sox fans, we're smarter than this...

Yup, 2005 had nothing to do with an incredible pitching staff both starting and bullpen, fantastic defensive all across the field and the 3rd most home runs in the league. Nope!

If you're going to use that lame ass logic then why not say Toby Hall is a more consistent, better hitting version of Chris Widger. Last time I checked, the 2005 Sox won the World Series with Widger as their backup catcher.

Craig Grebeck
04-22-2008, 07:37 AM
We also won with a terrible offense! Bring back Carl!

Frater Perdurabo
04-22-2008, 08:34 AM
He's a more consistent, less injury-prone version of Pods. Last time I checked, the 2005 Sox won the World Series with Pods as their left fielder.

Again with this garbage? Seriously White Sox fans, we're smarter than this...

Yup, 2005 had nothing to do with an incredible pitching staff both starting and bullpen, fantastic defensive all across the field and the 3rd most home runs in the league. Nope!

If you're going to use that lame ass logic then why not say Toby Hall is a more consistent, better hitting version of Chris Widger. Last time I checked, the 2005 Sox won the World Series with Widger as their backup catcher.

FedEx,

There's a big difference between these two statements:

A. Pods was the reason the Sox won the WS (I challenge you to find where I said this; look above to re-read what I wrote).

B. The Sox won the WS with Pods; having Pods in LF and leading off didn't prevent the Sox from winning the WS. I believe the Sox still would have won the WS with Pierre instead of Pods. (Game 2 of might have gone into extra innings, though. :tongue:)

See the difference?

Frater Perdurabo
04-22-2008, 08:53 AM
We also won with a terrible offense! Bring back Carl!

Way to obfuscate the point.

The 2005 Sox had an opportunistic and productive offense that could score runs with home runs, and could manufacture a run when necessary. Pods was a part of that. Pods at leadoff and in LF didn't PREVENT the Sox from winning the 2005 World Series.

It's conjecture on my part and can't be proven or disproven, but have Pierre replace Pods in LF and I think the Sox still would have won the 2005 World Series.

Craig Grebeck
04-22-2008, 08:59 AM
Way to obfuscate the point.

The 2005 Sox had an opportunistic and productive offense that could score runs with home runs, and could manufacture a run when necessary. Pods was a part of that. Pods at leadoff and in LF didn't PREVENT the Sox from winning the 2005 World Series.

It's conjecture on my part and can't be proven or disproven, but have Pierre replace Pods in LF and I think the Sox still would have won the 2005 World Series.
That's a poor way of looking at the situation. Just because we won a world series despite having a poor offense doesn't make it justifiable. Pods' only contribution was a first half of good OBP.

Your "point" doesn't make an ounce of difference in whether or not Pierre is a terrible investment. He is, without a doubt, the worst player signed to a long term deal in baseball.

fquaye149
04-22-2008, 10:17 AM
FedEx,

There's a big difference between these two statements:

A. Pods was the reason the Sox won the WS (I challenge you to find where I said this; look above to re-read what I wrote).

B. The Sox won the WS with Pods; having Pods in LF and leading off didn't prevent the Sox from winning the WS. I believe the Sox still would have won the WS with Pierre instead of Pods. (Game 2 of might have gone into extra innings, though. :tongue:)

See the difference?

Pierre OBPed .326 in the junior league in 2005. Admittedly, this was in a pitcher's park, which rather evens out him playing in the junior league. However, his 2005 OBP was about 30 points lower than Pods's was in 2005.
That's not good for a leadoff hitter. Pods, as debatably "overrated" as he may have been, was still a much much much much better hitter than Pierre in 2005

doublem23
04-22-2008, 10:57 AM
Pierre OBPed .326 in the junior league in 2005. Admittedly, this was in a pitcher's park, which rather evens out him playing in the junior league. However, his 2005 OBP was about 30 points lower than Pods's was in 2005.
That's not good for a leadoff hitter. Pods, as debatably "overrated" as he may have been, was still a much much much much better hitter than Pierre in 2005

:hijacked:

Pierre was in Florida in 2005, right? The American League is the Junior League/Circuit, etc.

Craig Grebeck
04-22-2008, 11:05 AM
:hijacked:

Pierre was in Florida in 2005, right? The American League is the Junior League/Circuit, etc.
Point stands, regardless of semantics.

Frater Perdurabo
04-22-2008, 11:20 AM
You will get no argument from me that Pierre is overpaid for his production.

All I am saying is that having him as your leadoff hitter and LF will not prevent you from winning the World Series. If you disagree, that's fine.

Craig Grebeck
04-22-2008, 12:04 PM
You will get no argument from me that Pierre is overpaid for his production.

All I am saying is that having him as your leadoff hitter and LF will not prevent you from winning the World Series. If you disagree, that's fine.
It will hurt your chances.

Frater Perdurabo
04-22-2008, 12:43 PM
It will hurt your chances.

In the same way that Pods hurt the Sox' chances in 2005?

In the same way that Pierre hurt the Marlins' chances in 2003?

Craig Grebeck
04-22-2008, 01:09 PM
In the same way that Pods hurt the Sox' chances in 2005?

In the same way that Pierre hurt the Marlins' chances in 2003?
2003 Juan Pierre is a long way away from the modern version. Yes, it can hurt your chances.

I haven't got the slightest idea why people can't understand why giving the most at-bats on your team to a guy who can't OPS league average is a good idea.

spiffie
04-22-2008, 01:29 PM
2003 Juan Pierre is a long way away from the modern version. Yes, it can hurt your chances.

I haven't got the slightest idea why people can't understand why giving the most at-bats on your team to a guy who can't OPS league average is a good idea.
Because only statheads and pencil-****ers fail to realize the importance of a proper leadoff hitter and care about made up numbers like OBP and OPS.

We need to look to someone real, someone who knows baseball, someone who has a world series ring to tell us what to do here.

I'd rather have people on base, have 100 people on base than have 100 guys stealing bases. I think the on-base percentage is pretty important.

Ummm...nevermind. :redface:

fquaye149
04-22-2008, 01:45 PM
:hijacked:

Pierre was in Florida in 2005, right? The American League is the Junior League/Circuit, etc.

Junior in age, sure, but not in quality of play

Maybe I should have called it the "kiddie league"

fquaye149
04-22-2008, 01:46 PM
You will get no argument from me that Pierre is overpaid for his production.

All I am saying is that having him as your leadoff hitter and LF will not prevent you from winning the World Series. If you disagree, that's fine.

Well since we came within a cat's whisker of missing the playoffs in 05 and since Podsednik was probably worth at least 2 wins more than Pierre with his .351 OBP vs. Pierre's .326 OBP IN THE LEADOFF SPOT I think it's quite likely that Pierre would have cost us a playoff spot in 05 and therefore would have prevented us from winning the WS

fquaye149
04-22-2008, 01:47 PM
In the same way that Pods hurt the Sox' chances in 2005?

In the same way that Pierre hurt the Marlins' chances in 2003?

PODSEDNIK WAS SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER THAN PIERRE IN 2005

PIERRE'S 2003 WAS AN ANOMALY. HE HASN'T HAD A YEAR EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO AS GOOD SINCE 2004

DSpivack
04-22-2008, 04:58 PM
Because only statheads and pencil-****ers fail to realize the importance of a proper leadoff hitter and care about made up numbers like OBP and OPS.

We need to look to someone real, someone who knows baseball, someone who has a world series ring to tell us what to do here.

Ummm...nevermind. :redface:

I'm no propellerhead but saying that OBP is a 'made up number' is just plain silly.

fquaye149
04-22-2008, 05:03 PM
I'm no propellerhead but saying that OBP is a 'made up number' is just plain silly.

:tealtutor:

soxfan26
04-23-2008, 12:21 AM
Pierre wins. Or loses. Whichever...

He is absolutely the worthless member.

DSpivack
04-23-2008, 05:48 AM
:tealtutor:

You might want to save that for the original poster of the quote.

fquaye149
04-23-2008, 07:54 AM
You might want to save that for the original poster of the quote.

:shrug:

FedEx227
04-23-2008, 09:06 AM
I'm no propellerhead but saying that OBP is a 'made up number' is just plain silly.

Yup the percentage of time a batter reaches base... not killing anyone on the math there, are we?

fquaye149
04-23-2008, 09:14 AM
apparently teal is necessary at all times.

i weep for humanitoids

FedEx227
04-23-2008, 09:31 AM
apparently teal is necessary at all times.

i weep for humanitoids

Ah ****, I see the embarrassed face in his original post now, nevermind.

The sad part is that's a real post for some mainstays here, which is laughable in it's own right.

VeeckAsInWreck
04-28-2008, 04:13 PM
For some reason I thought Andruw was older but I saw that he recently turned 30.

At this point his stats don't look pretty with that .159 AVG 1 HR and 4 RBI.

jabrch
05-07-2008, 12:27 AM
Just updating...

Jones - .158/.267/.248 for 18mm per for 2 years

Pierre - .324/.400/.380 for 9mm per for 4 more years

Martin - .296/.434/.426 for the league minimum

Smokey Burg
05-07-2008, 12:44 PM
Both Pierre and Jones are (probably) capable of a couple streaks throughout the season that will remind fans of glories of years past. Glad they are not here. Can they put together an entire season? Magic 8-ball says "very doubtful". IMHO, in short, LA paid through the nose for two pieces of "past-ure prime beef". However, once they both finish in LA, they might find a place in cubbie blue. Flubs do have apenchant for adding high priced, under performing "veterans".

Eddo144
05-07-2008, 12:58 PM
In the same way that Pods hurt the Sox' chances in 2005?

In the same way that Pierre hurt the Marlins' chances in 2003?
Sure. Something can hurt you chances at accomplishing something without actually preventing you from doing so. Here's a quick example from last night's Sox game (the Floyd near-no-hitter): when Quentin made the error that ultimately allowed the Twins to score their lone run and cut the Sox lead in half, it definitely decreased the Sox's chances of winning. In the end, the Sox won, but his play was still a negative.

turners56
05-07-2008, 03:47 PM
Aren't you all glad those Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre rumors over the past off-seasons never came true?

jabrch
05-07-2008, 06:48 PM
Aren't you all glad those Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre rumors over the past off-seasons never came true?

Pierre - .324/.400/.380 for 9mm per for 4 more years


Why exactly would I not want that, with top tier speed, at the top of my lineup?

Jjav829
05-07-2008, 06:50 PM
Pierre - .324/.400/.380 for 9mm per for 4 more years


Why exactly would I not want that, with top tier speed, at the top of my lineup?

And here is exactly why the first 6 weeks of the baseball season really mean absolutely nothing in the end (at least in terms of individual player performance).

Frater Perdurabo
05-07-2008, 07:37 PM
Pierre - .324/.400/.380 for 9mm per for 4 more years

Why exactly would I not want that, with top tier speed, at the top of my lineup?

Indeed. All of this love for OBP (which I agree is important) has led to a complete dismissal of batting average.

Honestly, with the way batting average has been dismissed, some WSI-ers would complain about the measly walk rates of Tony Gwynn (55/year) or Roberto Clemente (41), because so much of their OBP consisted of their batting average! Lou Brock only had a .343 career OBP. What a worthless leadoff hitter!

Jjav829
05-07-2008, 08:01 PM
Indeed. All of this love for OBP (which I agree is important) has led to a complete dismissal of batting average.

Honestly, with the way batting average has been dismissed, some WSI-ers would complain about the measly walk rates of Tony Gwynn (55/year) or Roberto Clemente (41), because so much of their OBP consisted of their batting average! Lou Brock only had a .343 career OBP. What a worthless leadoff hitter!

You're both missing the point here. There isn't a single person in baseball who would knock Pierre if he put up that line consistently. He had a .400 OBP (as of the previous post)! A .400 OBP with great speed. Who wouldn't like to have that, even with his crappy defense and lack of power. If the guy was getting on base at a .400 clip, he'd be highly sought after and $9 million a year would seem like a bargain.

The problem is there is absolutely no chance Pierre puts up those numbers.

His last three years:
05: .276 AVG/ .326 OBP
06: .292 AVG/ .330 OBP
07: .293 AVG/ .331 OBP
08: .316 AVG/ .388 OBP

Game time! One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong. Can you guess which? If you said 2008, give yourself a pat on the back.

Ichiro Suzuki is considered to be one of the best leadoff men in baseball. He's only walked more than 49 times once in his career. But...he's a career .332 hitter! And he steals at a high rate. Over the last 4 years, he has 128 steals in 147 attempts, or an 87% steal rate. Compare that to Pierre who in the same time frame has 190 steals in 243 attempts, or a 78% steal rate.

The point isn't that Pierre's current production for the 08 season is poor, because it certainly isn't. The point is that he simply won't continue to perform at that level.

fquaye149
05-07-2008, 08:19 PM
You're both missing the point here. There isn't a single person in baseball who would knock Pierre if he put up that line consistently. He had a .400 OBP (as of the previous post)! A .400 OBP with great speed. Who wouldn't like to have that, even with his crappy defense and lack of power. If the guy was getting on base at a .400 clip, he'd be highly sought after and $9 million a year would seem like a bargain.

The problem is there is absolutely no chance Pierre puts up those numbers.

His last three years:
05: .276 AVG/ .326 OBP
06: .292 AVG/ .330 OBP
07: .293 AVG/ .331 OBP
08: .316 AVG/ .388 OBP

Game time! One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong. Can you guess which? If you said 2008, give yourself a pat on the back.

Ichiro Suzuki is considered to be one of the best leadoff men in baseball. He's only walked more than 49 times once in his career. But...he's a career .332 hitter! And he steals at a high rate. Over the last 4 years, he has 128 steals in 147 attempts, or an 87% steal rate. Compare that to Pierre who in the same time frame has 190 steals in 243 attempts, or a 78% steal rate.

The point isn't that Pierre's current production for the 08 season is poor, because it certainly isn't. The point is that he simply won't continue to perform at that level.

Ditto.

Pierre has had 2 great years--2003 and 2004. He has had a great April of 2008



Asides from that, his career has been pretty well garbage. If he can do 2003 and 2004 quality in 08 he'll be great value. But odds are he won't.

Frater Perdurabo
05-07-2008, 08:36 PM
You're both missing the point here.

...Edits...

The point isn't that Pierre's current production for the 08 season is poor, because it certainly isn't. The point is that he simply won't continue to perform at that level.

Never said anything about Pierre, other than I thought that right now he was putting up good numbers that would look good atop any lineup.

Then I said this:

Honestly, with the way batting average has been dismissed, some WSI-ers would complain about the measly walk rates of Tony Gwynn (55/year) or Roberto Clemente (41), because so much of their OBP consisted of their batting average! Lou Brock only had a .343 career OBP. What a worthless leadoff hitter!

I don't think I missed any points. I made a different point.

turners56
05-07-2008, 08:41 PM
Pierre - .324/.400/.380 for 9mm per for 4 more years


Why exactly would I not want that, with top tier speed, at the top of my lineup?

But Juan Pierre has no arm, he usually doesn't hit .324 and for a leadoff man, he never walks. Did you remember him with the Cubs? He wasn't very good, the guy is extremely over-rated.

Jjav829
05-07-2008, 08:42 PM
Never said anything about Pierre, other than I thought that right now he was putting up good numbers that would look good atop any lineup.

Then I said this:



I don't think I missed any points. I made a different point.

Ok, well, your jumping off of jabrch's post made it seem like you were referencing Pierre's high average, which few would dismiss if he could do it consistently.

Frater Perdurabo
05-07-2008, 08:50 PM
Ok, well, your jumping off of jabrch's post made it seem like you were referencing Pierre's high average, which few would dismiss if he could do it consistently.

No sweat, it's all good. :D: