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View Full Version : Frank frustrated in Toronto - released


Sockinchisox
04-19-2008, 12:34 PM
Gibbons has been benching him because of his slow start and Frank is getting fed up with it.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080419&content_id=2552467&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb&partnered=rss_mlb

munchman33
04-19-2008, 12:41 PM
:(:

twentywontowin
04-19-2008, 12:48 PM
So one of the best pure hitters of all-time gets off to a slow start, which he has been known to do his whole career, and the best idea is to put him on the bench? Fantastic logic John Gibbons. Great way for a man to break his slump...don't give him any at-bats.

Keep in mind this is the same lunatic that sent Dave Bush to the minors for being upset after getting pulled from the game, and brawled Ted Lilly in the clubhouse during a game.

"So crack open an ice cold Bud Light Mr. I Only Played 18 Major League Games and Had A .220 Batting Average and Got My Job With No Previous Coaching Experience. Because we all know next time you lose your cool, Frank Thomas won't hesitate to shove his bat up your ass for being a douchebag."

This pisses me off.

santo=dorf
04-19-2008, 12:56 PM
Man, why can't Paulie just keep his mouth shut?

How much longer should we give Uribe considering he's off to a slow start and has a better track record than Gibbons?

Frank probably would've been back in a couple days, but after this whine, Gibbons might hold him there a little longer. Kinda silly on both parts.

rowand33
04-19-2008, 01:11 PM
This breaks my heart.

JB98
04-19-2008, 01:18 PM
Toronto's roster is strong enough to compete for the title in the AL East this year. However, they'll finish third again because the manager is an idiot.

Chicken Dinner
04-19-2008, 01:59 PM
I'd watch the game from the dugout for 8 million a year. :o:

Steelrod
04-19-2008, 02:11 PM
So it starts again, in another city. Will be interesting to see how this plays out!

gogosox16
04-19-2008, 02:13 PM
I'd watch the game from the dugout for 8 million a year. :o:
And you get the best view in the park, so close up and you get to watch and you get paid.....I want that job:tongue:

LoveYourSuit
04-19-2008, 03:21 PM
BS move by Gibbons.

All Thomas has done since leaving the Sox is lead both of his two new teams in HRs and RBIs.

And to bench him in favor of Matt Stairs.


What a moron.

Frontman
04-19-2008, 03:25 PM
Frank for his career is always slow out of the gate. Heck, that was one of the reason his performance in 2005 was so amazing, as he came in swinging and hitting. Sadly, his foot couldn't hold up to keep him going, but this one boggles the mind.

Usually the whole "they're out to get me" card annoys me, but with Frank needing so few at plate appearances compared to what he did last season?

Sounds like they're trying to keep him from getting at-bat appearances to me.

dickallen15
04-19-2008, 03:42 PM
Frank for his career is always slow out of the gate. Heck, that was one of the reason his performance in 2005 was so amazing, as he came in swinging and hitting. Sadly, his foot couldn't hold up to keep him going, but this one boggles the mind.

Usually the whole "they're out to get me" card annoys me, but with Frank needing so few at plate appearances compared to what he did last season?

Sounds like they're trying to keep him from getting at-bat appearances to me.
Frank signed the contract. If that's why they are benching him, its their perrogative. His average is lower than Uribe's right now. I see nothing that says its permanent. He's just going to have to hit when he's back in the line-up to stay in the line-up in order for his $10 million option to kick in next season when he will be 40 years old turning 41. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

TomBradley72
04-19-2008, 03:44 PM
Typical Frank...the reason this is a big story is because he walked straight from the manager's office to the media and shot his mouth off. Too bad he couldn't have waited a few days to see how this really played out.

Gibbons is a buffoon. But Stairs is hitting .308 over 38 ABs so far this year... going to him as an alternative DH for a little while is a legitimate move.

oeo
04-19-2008, 04:37 PM
Isn't Gibbons an *******? He's always getting into it with his team...I wonder how he's held that job so long.

TDog
04-19-2008, 04:57 PM
Toronto's roster is strong enough to compete for the title in the AL East this year. However, they'll finish third again because the manager is an idiot.

Toronto will finish no higher than third because they aren't any better than that. Tampa Bay is the last place team in the division, and I don't know how long Baltimore will continue to be the scrappy team that it has been this season, but Toronto isn't in the class with the Yankees or Red Sox, and I'm not terribly impressed with the Yankees.

A lot of people at WSI would like to sit Konerko or Thome because of their slow starts, and both are hitting better than Thomas. The Orioles can do better at DH than Thomas right now.

rdwj
04-19-2008, 05:25 PM
Now Frank can get back to doing the one thing he does better than hitting - pouting

NADA SURF
04-19-2008, 05:46 PM
Frank's at it again...
What an emotionally immature human being...
He was a total infant his last few years with the Sox.Now Frank can get back to doing the one thing he does better than hitting - pouting

soxinem1
04-19-2008, 06:51 PM
Hmmm, a week ago he hits HR's in three straight games, now he's on the bench.

Frank should have talked this out with Gibbons in private, but he should realize his MGR is a walking goof.

The thing is, if Ted Lilly whooped John Gibbons ass, Frank could crack him in two!

Then TOR will have an excuse to get a new manager!

Jjav829
04-19-2008, 06:56 PM
Toronto will finish no higher than third because they aren't any better than that. Tampa Bay is the last place team in the division, and I don't know how long Baltimore will continue to be the scrappy team that it has been this season, but Toronto isn't in the class with the Yankees or Red Sox, and I'm not terribly impressed with the Yankees.

A lot of people at WSI would like to sit Konerko or Thome because of their slow starts, and both are hitting better than Thomas. The Orioles can do better at DH than Thomas right now.

Not really. :smile:

The Rays aren't the worst team in the division. I know the Orioles got off to a hot start, but top to bottom, that team isn't very good. They played over their heads early on. The full season will bring them back to where they belong.

And for Frank, well, it's another situation where he shouldn't have opened his mouth. Obviously he is frustrated by his slow start. Stairs is off to a nice start. We know when both are healthy and at the top of their game, Frank is the much better hitter. This is a situation where Frank should have simply trusted his talent, knowing that once he gets hot he will be in the lineup nearly everyday and the money will be there.

TDog
04-19-2008, 07:47 PM
Not really. :smile:

The Rays aren't the worst team in the division. I know the Orioles got off to a hot start, but top to bottom, that team isn't very good. They played over their heads early on. The full season will bring them back to where they belong.

And for Frank, well, it's another situation where he shouldn't have opened his mouth. Obviously he is frustrated by his slow start. Stairs is off to a nice start. We know when both are healthy and at the top of their game, Frank is the much better hitter. This is a situation where Frank should have simply trusted his talent, knowing that once he gets hot he will be in the lineup nearly everyday and the money will be there.

Thanks for pointing out my blunder. Obviously, I should have proofread my hurried post.

I don't see why so many people around here expect the Rays to be a good team. I don't know if the Orioles will continue to play good baseball, but Tampa Bay isn't a very good team. The have young players who are good enough to win on any given day, but they don't have what it takes to win consistently. A few hitters will probably look good on people's fantasy teams, but as a team they don't look as good as they did last year.

Thomas isn't doing anything at the plate, and Stairs is hitting some. I see no problem with Stairs seeing more playing time at DH, if I cared about the Blue Jays winning.

Frankly, though, I haven't cared what Thomas has done since he left the Sox. I take that back. I have wanted him to perform poorly against the Sox because I want to see every opponent perform poorly against the Sox.

santo=dorf
04-19-2008, 07:53 PM
Reaction at the Blue Jays' board... (http://youtube.com/watch?v=WLJnyUBFCyA&feature=related)

I trust John Gibbons in making the right decision. There's a reason why he's in the dugout and the internet managers are posting behind a computer screen.
:scratch:

Jjav829
04-19-2008, 09:17 PM
Thanks for pointing out my blunder. Obviously, I should have proofread my hurried post.

Just messing with you. :smile:

I don't see why so many people around here expect the Rays to be a good team. I don't know if the Orioles will continue to play good baseball, but Tampa Bay isn't a very good team. The have young players who are good enough to win on any given day, but they don't have what it takes to win consistently. A few hitters will probably look good on people's fantasy teams, but as a team they don't look as good as they did last year.They have a lot of talent. Talent generally leads to wins. I don't know what you mean about not being a very good team.

The biggest issue for them right now is that Scott Kazmir and Matt Garza, their respective #1 and #3, are currently on the DL. Their starting catcher, Dioner Navarro, has joined them.

When they get those two pitchers get back, they'll look like a lot better "team."

Madscout
04-20-2008, 12:58 AM
Reaction at the Blue Jays' board... (http://youtube.com/watch?v=WLJnyUBFCyA&feature=related)


:scratch:

Damn you!!!

TDog
04-20-2008, 02:16 AM
...
They have a lot of talent. Talent generally leads to wins. I don't know what you mean about not being a very good team. ...

The Rays generally don't play very well, much as the White Sox did Saturday night. I don't know if the players are selfish, lazy or just lack baseball smarts.

Tragg
04-20-2008, 09:06 AM
Reaction at the Blue Jays' board... (http://youtube.com/watch?v=WLJnyUBFCyA&feature=related)


:scratch:
I'm worried about you.

Jjav829
04-20-2008, 09:36 AM
The Rays generally don't play very well, much as the White Sox did Saturday night. I don't know if the players are selfish, lazy or just lack baseball smarts.

They're a young team. They're going to have those moments. Still, they have a ton of talent and talent alone will win them a bunch of games.

SoxyStu
04-20-2008, 11:04 AM
and now he's unemployed :x

Jjav829
04-20-2008, 11:09 AM
and now he's unemployed :x

Interesting. (http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=234740&lid=headline&lpos=topStory_main) Blue Jays fans were speculating this would come, but I'm surprised so soon.

They're also talking about the Jays going after Bonds, but I'd think they're more likely to call up Adam Lind.

What's next for Frank? Maybe the Rays take a run at him? Or the Mariners?

Madvora
04-20-2008, 11:23 AM
Where's is there a story about him being released? I only see articles about him being upset on sportsline and ESPN?

EDIT - actually I see it on his player page
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/8126

Looks like the headlines need to be updated on those sites.

jabrch
04-20-2008, 11:34 AM
Never figured I'd see this day...

jabrch
04-20-2008, 11:35 AM
Typical Frank...the reason this is a big story is because he walked straight from the manager's office to the media and shot his mouth off. Too bad he couldn't have waited a few days to see how this really played out.

Gibbons is a buffoon. But Stairs is hitting .308 over 38 ABs so far this year... going to him as an alternative DH for a little while is a legitimate move.

Now Frank can get back to doing the one thing he does better than hitting - pouting

Frank's at it again...
What an emotionally immature human being...
He was a total infant his last few years with the Sox.



Paging RKM...Paging RKM...

voodoochile
04-20-2008, 11:39 AM
Someone will pick him up.

Madvora
04-20-2008, 11:45 AM
Someone will pick him up.
No doubt about that. If the Sox grabbed Canseco, someone will grab Frank.

Sockinchisox
04-20-2008, 11:52 AM
Shocking, Toronto is a dumb organization.

Frontman
04-20-2008, 11:54 AM
Anyone got an over/under bet on how long it will take some to say he should re-sign with the Sox?

Terrible situation, but Frank's personality doesn't help him out. Shame, really.

pearso66
04-20-2008, 11:56 AM
Anyone got an over/under bet on how long it will take some to say he should re-sign with the Sox?

Terrible situation, but Frank's personality doesn't help him out. Shame, really.


The Sox should sign Frank. He can platoon with Thome. Thome sits against lefties and Frank against righties. He can also spell Konerko at 1st.

Frontman
04-20-2008, 11:57 AM
The Sox should sign Frank. He can platoon with Thome. Thome sits against lefties and Frank against righties. He can also spell Konerko at 1st.

Two minutes!!! A new record in rapid posting!

A HoF player should be able to end their career playing in the last game of the year. I hope Frank's career doesn't end like this.

It's Dankerific
04-20-2008, 12:00 PM
he's got 11 rbis, and a team is only on the hook for 300k to pick him up. he'll be on a team as soon as he clears.

EMachine10
04-20-2008, 12:04 PM
The way Thome is hitting right now, I wouldn't really mind him coming back, but obviously, Frank wouldn't go for a platoon situation, so that ends that.

balke
04-20-2008, 12:11 PM
Someone will pick him up.

I'd like to see the Rays snag him.

pearso66
04-20-2008, 12:12 PM
I have no doubts that someone will pick Frank up. It hurts Bonds stock, since he was hoping someone would get desperate and pick him up, now there is another bat to compete with him. And I am almost certain teams would rather have Thomas than Bonds.

balke
04-20-2008, 12:13 PM
The way Thome is hitting right now, I wouldn't really mind him coming back, but obviously, Frank wouldn't go for a platoon situation, so that ends that.


Everyone hates everyone in that situation. Frank will never come back here. The only thing I didn't like about Kenny, he couldn't find a way to get along with Frank. The guy is a legend and made the Sox a ton of money, and they didn't really have to pay him much for it. Injured or not, people paid a lot more attention to the Sox knowing there was a legendary hitter in the organization.

Steelrod
04-20-2008, 12:13 PM
There is zerooooo chance of the Sox signing him. I realize it's blasphmous to talk negitavely about Frank on this board, but can you imagine what the clubhouse in Toronto must have been like for them to release him while being 9 million on the hook?

Steelrod
04-20-2008, 12:14 PM
Everyone hates everyone in that situation. Frank will never come back here. The only thing I didn't like about Kenny, he couldn't find a way to get along with Frank. The guy is a legend and made the Sox a ton of money, and they didn't really have to pay him much for it. Injured or not, people paid a lot more attention to the Sox knowing there was a legendary hitter in the organization.
Sounds like you are talking about Bonds and SF !

voodoochile
04-20-2008, 12:20 PM
I'd like to see the Rays snag him.

And then finish ahead of Toronto...

October26
04-20-2008, 12:31 PM
I'm sorry to hear that Frank was released by Toronto. I'm not suggesting that the Sox sign him - he is part of our past now. But Frank Thomas was the face of the White sox for 15 years and in my opinion, the greatest player in the history of our franchise (sorry Joe Jackson). This is a sad day - I hope Frank gets picked up soon.

balke
04-20-2008, 12:32 PM
Sounds like you are talking about Bonds and SF !

best LH power bat (or griffey) v. best RH power bat of the era. Frank and Griffey didn't do steroids though.

Edit: I realize Manny deserves to be mentioned there too. There was a time though when it was Frank and Griffey and then everyone else. Then there were steroids.

santo=dorf
04-20-2008, 12:40 PM
The way Thome is hitting right now, I wouldn't really mind him coming back, but obviously, Frank wouldn't go for a platoon situation, so that ends that.
Why? Thome is out hitting Frank right now.

Why is Thomas complaining about being benched for 2 games out of 18? :?:

jabrch
04-20-2008, 12:43 PM
Steve Phillips just said that Toronto management told him that there were going to deliberately make sure he didn't get enough PAs to kick in his 10mm option for next year, so they agreed a release was in everyone's best interest...makes sense to me. We all know an unhappy Frank can't help a clubhouse much and if they don't want to see him get enough ABs, they obviously think they have other options (Lind?)

balke
04-20-2008, 12:47 PM
Why? Thome is out hitting Frank right now.

Why is Thomas complaining about being benched for 2 games out of 18? :?:


He'll lose his signing bonus if he doesn't get 350 at-bats. They moved him lower in the order and started benching him.

PaleHoser
04-20-2008, 12:50 PM
Sounds to me like Toronto has more clubhouse issues than Big Frank. This was a public execution to send a message to all of the players about who's in charge.

Over the course of a full season, Frank can stand on his head hitting left handed and still hit better than Matt Stairs. Makes no sense at all.

voodoochile
04-20-2008, 12:51 PM
Steve Phillips just said that Toronto management told him that there were going to deliberately make sure he didn't get enough PAs to kick in his 10mm option for next year, so they agreed a release was in everyone's best interest...makes sense to me. We all know an unhappy Frank can't help a clubhouse much and if they don't want to see him get enough ABs, they obviously think they have other options (Lind?)

Doesn't sound like they bargained in good faith then. Maybe the players' union needs to file a complaint on Frank's behalf.

hawkjt
04-20-2008, 01:05 PM
Frank will get signed and if given the at bats he will hit 30 homers and 90 rbi's.

I could see the O's,Twins,A's,or the Mariners having interest.

slowlearner
04-20-2008, 01:06 PM
If Sheffield's still banged up (not 100% sure whether he is or not), could Frank end up with the Kitties? Seems like he would be a cheap insurance policy for them given Sheff's injury history. Then again, if he wants consistent ABs he's probably not getting them in Detroit.

The very idea turns my stomach.

MCHSoxFan
04-20-2008, 01:10 PM
This breaks my heart.


Me too. I felt just terrible after he departed from us after the World Series. :(: CAN WE GET HIM BACK?!?! KENNY AND HIM COULD MAKE-UP! :(:

Carp
04-20-2008, 01:13 PM
Frank will get signed and if given the at bats he will hit 30 homers and 90 rbi's.

I could see the O's,Twins,A's,or the Mariners having interest.

:puking:

Jjav829
04-20-2008, 01:15 PM
Sounds to me like Toronto has more clubhouse issues than Big Frank. This was a public execution to send a message to all of the players about who's in charge.

Over the course of a full season, Frank can stand on his head hitting left handed and still hit better than Matt Stairs. Makes no sense at all.

That's not the case at all.

It's all about the money. The Jays didn't want to pay Frank $10 million next year, and it's hard to blame them. They had two choices. Either make Frank a part-time player to prevent him from getting the 376 plate appearances, and deal with Frank causing problems in the clubhouse, or release him.

The later works better.

pierzynski07
04-20-2008, 01:21 PM
I always hate when a great player gets a "released by" note under their transaction history for the first time at the end of their career.

wassagstdu
04-20-2008, 01:21 PM
The guy is a legend and made the Sox a ton of money, and they didn't really have to pay him much for it. Injured or not, people paid a lot more attention to the Sox knowing there was a legendary hitter in the organization.

The Frank Thomas era, the era in which the team was built around Frank Thomas, produced nothing but losers. Maybe he should be a legendary hitter with the Cubs.

("Where's that 'ignore' button?")

Mod Edit: This is a violation of board policy. I sent you a PM warning you that there will be consequences to your membership if you do it again.

santo=dorf
04-20-2008, 01:22 PM
He'll lose his signing bonus if he doesn't get 350 at-bats. They moved him lower in the order and started benching him.Get your facts straight. If he didn't reach enough PA's, he wouldn't have his 2009 option automatically kick in. They never moved him down lower in the order (which is what they should've done) as ALL of his PA's have come from the #5 spot this year. ...and if he didn't want to bat in the 5 spot, perhaps he should've shown more life in spring training or turn the clock back 10 years.

In order for the option NOT to kick in, they would have to bench him for half the year. Seeing that they played him in almost 90% of the games despite a BA lower than Juan Uribe's, I don't see them intentionally benching just to save money. They both agreed to the contract, so they should both be responsible to accept the terms.

ComiskeyBrewer
04-20-2008, 01:23 PM
He'll get signed soon.

santo=dorf
04-20-2008, 01:23 PM
Me too. I felt just terrible after he departed from us after the World Series. :(: CAN WE GET HIM BACK?!?! KENNY AND HIM COULD MAKE-UP! :(:
This isn't high school.

Frank said he wouldn't have thrown out the first pitch before the 2005 ALDS had he known he wouldn't be brought back.

That says enough right there.

SALUKIS15
04-20-2008, 01:25 PM
I just read this in today's Suntimes.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/905398,bighurt042008.article

Any thoughts on the chances of his signing with the Sox then retiring. This would be similar to what Joe Montana did when he retired, sign a one day contract just so he could retire with the 49'ers. I think this would be a great show of class by the organization after a bitter break-up a couple of years ago. Any thoughts?

Lukin13
04-20-2008, 01:26 PM
Frank has always been a big baby.

Glad to see someone stand up to him.

The big guy wasn't hitting and was uspet that he was sitting... I'd hate to break it to you guys but that is life.

NDSox12
04-20-2008, 01:31 PM
The Frank Thomas era, the era in which the team was built around Frank Thomas, produced nothing but losers. Maybe he should be a legendary hitter with the Cubs.

("Where's that 'ignore' button?")

In Frank's 16 years with the Sox, they had a losing record just 4 times. So I think it is a little over the top to say the Frank Thomas era produced nothing but losers. Underachievers, perhaps, but not losers.

downstairs
04-20-2008, 01:33 PM
Frank has always been a big baby.

Glad to see someone stand up to him.

The big guy wasn't hitting and was uspet that he was sitting... I'd hate to break it to you guys but that is life.

Exactly. How long have you all been Sox fans? It used to be a yearly occurance: spring training starts, Frank is crying/bitching/holding out/blah blah blah.

He's a great player. Glad he's known as a White Sox, and will go into the HOF as such... but don't feel bad for him when he spouts off and someone calls him on it.

And, no, he's not going to play in Chicago again.

balke
04-20-2008, 01:40 PM
Get your facts straight. If he didn't reach enough PA's, he wouldn't have his 2009 option automatically kick in. They never moved him down lower in the order (which is what they should've done) as ALL of his PA's have come from the #5 spot this year. ...and if he didn't want to bat in the 5 spot, perhaps he should've shown more life in spring training or turn the clock back 10 years.

In order for the option NOT to kick in, they would have to bench him for half the year. Seeing that they played him in almost 90% of the games despite a BA lower than Juan Uribe's, I don't see them intentionally benching just to save money. They both agreed to the contract, so they should both be responsible to accept the terms.


I must've confused him with someone else. I thought I read an article yesterday that mentioned they were going to move him down in the order a spot.

from yahoosports: Apr 19 Thomas was livid Saturday after getting benched in favor of Matt Stairs and being told by manager John Gibbons he can expect further cuts to his playing time.Advice: Thomas was hitless in his past 13 at-bats and has gone 4-for-35 since homering in three straight games April 5-8. The 39-year-old Thomas signed a two-year, $18-million contract with Toronto in November 2006. The deal includes a $10 million option for 2009, but only if Thomas makes 376 plate appearances this season. Thomas is batting .167 with three homers and 11 RBIs in 60 at-bats.







There's your facts. 376 at bats. That's more than half a season of benching.

TDog
04-20-2008, 01:41 PM
I'm surprised to read that Frank Thomas was released. I shouldn't be. I posted during the offseason that I wasn't sure he should even come back this year because I don't believe he has that much left.

The Sox won't pick up Thomas, and it has nothing to do with who doesn't get along with whom. He's old and slow and would be a liability if he ever went out on defense. The Sox already have that in Jim Thome, who has had more offensive success against left-handers this season than Thomas. He has a better chance of re-signing with the A's, who have been DHing Jack Cust. From what I've heard, the A's weren't that sorry to see Thomas sign with the Blue Jays, but I don't know why. Nick Swisher credited Thomas with helping him improve his hitting a couple of years ago. Thomas would be a bargain for any team that needed a DH, but I don't know what team that might be.

When I was in high school and the Red Sox released Luis Aparicio, the Tribune did a story about the White Sox saying they didn't plan to sign him, the question being out there among fans. I suppose it's natural for some Sox fans to want Thomas back, even if there is no place for him to play.

Personally, if he's not playing for the Sox anymore, I don't care if he retires.

balke
04-20-2008, 01:43 PM
This isn't high school.

Frank said he wouldn't have thrown out the first pitch before the 2005 ALDS had he known he wouldn't be brought back.

That says enough right there.


What does that say exactly? I wouldn't have been a puppet for this organization, if I knew they didn't care to even keep me around next season? Would you have bought your girlfriend a necklace if you knew she was going to dump you the next day?

balke
04-20-2008, 01:45 PM
Frank has always been a big baby.

Glad to see someone stand up to him.

The big guy wasn't hitting and was uspet that he was sitting... I'd hate to break it to you guys but that is life.


Frank gets asked questions by the media, and answers them truthfully. He doesn't let organizations push him around, because he's one of the best hitters in the history of baseball, on the downside of his career or not.

Every person on this board would show disgust if your job did something that could potentially cost you money out of your pocket.

MrRoboto83
04-20-2008, 01:49 PM
Minnesota might be interested in him.:(:

balke
04-20-2008, 01:50 PM
The Frank Thomas era, the era in which the team was built around Frank Thomas, produced nothing but losers. Maybe he should be a legendary hitter with the Cubs.

("Where's that 'ignore' button?")

Mod Edit: This is a violation of board policy. I sent you a PM warning you that there will be consequences to your membership if you do it again.


Frank contributed 12 HR's in 2005. The team that pushed itself into the playoffs for a world series. I saw him put the team up on the Devil Rays before the all star break live.

thomas35forever
04-20-2008, 02:00 PM
Somebody will pick him up soon. I can see him maybe going to Tampa.

manders_01
04-20-2008, 02:01 PM
Ozzie comments:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080420&content_id=2558745&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Although it would be great to see Frank in a Sox uni again, the idea of bringing back someone that we let go of (even if I don't agree with that decision) just doesn't seem right.

RKMeibalane
04-20-2008, 02:05 PM
Paging RKM...Paging RKM...

And here I am. :cool:

It's unfortunate that something like this happened, but I can't really blame the Jays for cutting Frank loose.

Having said that, prior to this week, it had been my impression that Thomas was happy in Toronto. The fact that things deteriorated so rapidly makes you wonder what was really going on. I'm sure we're going to learn more over the next few days.

Navarro's Talent
04-20-2008, 02:16 PM
Frank will get with another team very soon.

I don't like the way the Blue Jays went about this.

HomeFish
04-20-2008, 02:24 PM
Sounds like it was a poorly drafted contract in the first place.

RKMeibalane
04-20-2008, 02:49 PM
Frank will get with another team very soon.

I don't like the way the Blue Jays went about this.

It's likely that the Blue Jays may face some sort of punishment if they were, in fact, deliberately trying to avoid playing Frank so that they didn't have to pay him.

Frank is better off getting out of there, regardless of the circumstances. Toronto will finish no higher than third, and Frank will be happier playing somewhere else. I'm almost certain that this will be his final season, and hope he can finish his career on a positive note.

As moody as he can be, Thomas has always played the game the right way, and deserves a far better fate than to disappear into baseball limbo, as Bonds has.

Frankfan4life
04-20-2008, 02:58 PM
Of course I wish the Sox would pick him up but I know we don't have a spot for him right now.

I'm sorry to see this happen to Frank. A future HOFer deserves better. I know he's partly to blame but that was not a classy departure befitting someone of Frank's stature. All I can say is good luck big guy. I hope your next team is a better fit (and please don't be a Sox-killa when you face us :tongue:)!

russ99
04-20-2008, 03:18 PM
Of course I wish the Sox would pick him up but I know we don't have a spot for him right now.

I'm sorry to see this happen to Frank. A future HOFer deserves better. I know he's partly to blame but that was not a classy departure befitting someone of Frank's stature. All I can say is good luck big guy. I hope your next team is a better fit (and please don't be a Sox-killa when you face us :tongue:)!

With the way Konerko and Thome (vs. righthanders) are hitting right now, and the lack of decent hitting from our bench, I can't see why the Sox wouldn't have an interest in bringing the Big Hurt back...

He'd have to be content with a part-time DH/pinch hit role, so I'm not sure if Frank would do it, but I see it akin to bringing in Everett in 2005 to add some pop to the bench...

TomBradley72
04-20-2008, 03:31 PM
Frank will get with another team very soon.

I don't like the way the Blue Jays went about this.

I just don't understand Frank. Within minutes of getting the news...he goes right to the media and makes it "a story". Then after the game, he's not there for his teamates for the postgame handshake, etc. Making it clear (once again) that his individual needs come ahead of the team's. At his age and after the millions he's made, you'd think there would be a better way for him to handle it.

I think the list of teams that would be interested in him will be very short. Obviously, only AL teams, and then probably only contenders who are coming up very short at DH. A young/rebuilding team doesn't need a guy that can be a clubhouse problem if things don't go his way.

I feel sorry for him. He's his own worst enemy some times.

TomBradley72
04-20-2008, 03:35 PM
With the way Konerko and Thome (vs. righthanders) are hitting right now, and the lack of decent hitting from our bench, I can't see why the Sox wouldn't have an interest in bringing the Big Hurt back...

He'd have to be content with a part-time DH/pinch hit role, so I'm not sure if Frank would do it, but I see it akin to bringing in Everett in 2005 to add some pop to the bench...

The last thing the White Sox need is another guy on the roster who can't run, can't field...but can only hit. He's have to replace a back up OF or IF for what benefit? So he can pinch hit for AJ or Thome late in the game? Plus, based on his track record for the past 8 years or so, Frank will eventually pout about something, and be a negative influence on the team chemistry overall. I completely honor his time with the White Sox, but the 2008 White Sox don't need him.

areilly
04-20-2008, 03:40 PM
I think the list of teams that would be interested in him will be very short. Obviously, only AL teams, and then probably only contenders who are coming up very short at DH. A young/rebuilding team doesn't need a guy that can be a clubhouse problem if things don't go his way.

I'd bank on an AL team in a "go for broke" phase. Seattle maybe?

santo=dorf
04-20-2008, 03:56 PM
but only if Thomas makes 376 plate appearances this season. Thomas is batting .167 with three homers and 11 RBIs in 60 at-bats.






There's your facts. 376 at bats. That's more than half a season of benching.
You clearly don't get it. For someone who walks nearly 100 times a season, that's a huge difference.

So far he has 71 PA's in 18 Games played by the Blue Jays. That means he had to get 305 PA's in 144 games.

I'll do the math for you because you obviously can't get anything right. 144/2 = 72 games. 305 PA's/72 games = 4.236 PA's per game.

That's absolutely obtainable playing just half of the remaining schedule.

Get a clue. You fail.

Frontman
04-20-2008, 03:59 PM
Everyone hates everyone in that situation. Frank will never come back here. The only thing I didn't like about Kenny, he couldn't find a way to get along with Frank. The guy is a legend and made the Sox a ton of money, and they didn't really have to pay him much for it. Injured or not, people paid a lot more attention to the Sox knowing there was a legendary hitter in the organization.

Except for the fact that the season prior to Frank being released?

The Sox won the World Series. I don't think they made that decision based upon worrying if they would have any attention on them.

ksimpson14
04-20-2008, 04:02 PM
Too bad about the Kenny situation, I think Frank would be a great fit here. He'd also have to accept being on the bench, which is no given (I think he was more mad about his contract depending on it and that situation), but if no one else takes a look, and he wants to help out his true team...

The Dude
04-20-2008, 04:04 PM
Why? Thome is out hitting Frank right now.

Why is Thomas complaining about being benched for 2 games out of 18? :?:

Thome just collected his 4th hit of the day by the way.

Because he is not a team player and never was. Although the best hitter the White Sox have ever had, Frank is not the model teammate or clubhouse leader. As someone already said, things must have been REALLY bad internally if they released him outright and now are on the hook for most of his contract.

That being said, he will be scooped up by an AL team soon.

Frontman
04-20-2008, 04:08 PM
The few things about bringing Frank back to the Sox.

1: Either him or Thome would have to be on the bench.

2: Having a DH only (as both are getting too old to sub at 1st) on the bench limits your team. That would mean Ozuna, Ramierez, or Anderson would have to go back to AAA; risking the chance you may need one of them for in-game replacement due to injury.

3: What kind of money would it take for Thomas to come back? Set aside the personality conflicts, but as it stands, Frank will get paid well to sit at home. He's not going to sign for a minimum/low-end contract and pass on that kind of money.

4: Is Ken Williams and Ozzie Guillen still running this team? Ok, he's not going to come back.

And honestly, I'm speaking from the heart here; I would like to see Frank return. He's a HoF, his last at-bat should be in a Sox uniform; even with an awful personal experience I had with Frank. I still would like to see him finish his career here.

But facing the facts about the situation above; I highly doubt it would happen.

NardiWasHere
04-20-2008, 04:14 PM
Good. I'm glad.

Hurt is such a little baby. Most every negative thing to ever happen to his career has been his own fault.

Here's a guy who is a future HOFer, played a majority of his career in the 3rd largest market, did not take 'roids....

All he had to do was shut up, give generic interviews (like he was doing at the end of '05), and get along with the people he worked with....

He would have been BELOVED by the city and the nation...

YET, he chose to bitch constantly and piss people off.

I really do not feel sorry for him at all.

balke
04-20-2008, 04:15 PM
You clearly don't get it. For someone who walks nearly 100 times a season, that's a huge difference.

So far he has 71 PA's in 18 Games played by the Blue Jays. That means he had to get 305 PA's in 144 games.

I'll do the math for you because you obviously can't get anything right. 144/2 = 72 games. 305 PA's/72 games = 4.236 PA's per game.

That's absolutely obtainable playing just half of the remaining schedule.

Get a clue. You fail.

I was thinking PA and at-bats are the same thing. I wasn't taking into consideration that a walk will count as a PA. And you are really cool btw.

Frontman
04-20-2008, 04:16 PM
I really do not feel sorry for him at all.

I don't fell sorry for him, per se (hell, he could make millions to sit at home. I've been trying to get that type of job, but I digress) but I do feel sorry for his fans and his supporters.

And I feel bad for the sport in general that it comes down to this so many times. Frank is just another in a long line of contract disputes.

Frater Perdurabo
04-20-2008, 04:17 PM
Count me among those who would like to see him return to the Sox.

Of course, I know that this train already has sailed. :(:

balke
04-20-2008, 04:18 PM
Except for the fact that the season prior to Frank being released?

The Sox won the World Series. I don't think they made that decision based upon worrying if they would have any attention on them.

I don't know what this has to do with the point I was making.

Frontman
04-20-2008, 04:23 PM
I don't know what this has to do with the point I was making.

It sounds like your point was that Frank should of remained with the Sox, Kenny should accept his difficulties to get along with the organization due to his ability to get fans out to the park/watch on TV.

My point is that didn't factor into it because:

A: At the time, Frank was pretty busted up and looked to be done career-wise.

B: The Sox weren't going to have to worry about attendance or ratings, as they were the champions in the 2006 season. Folks were going to come out and watch because of that, not because of Frank.

jabrch
04-20-2008, 04:25 PM
Too bad about the Kenny situation, I think Frank would be a great fit here.

Backup DH is not a very popular position...

NardiWasHere
04-20-2008, 04:28 PM
And another thing...

I like that Toronto has the balls to just eat $10 Mil.

I wish more teams did that.

ND_Sox_Fan
04-20-2008, 04:38 PM
I just don't understand Frank. Within minutes of getting the news...he goes right to the media and makes it "a story". Then after the game, he's not there for his teamates for the postgame handshake, etc. Making it clear (once again) that his individual needs come ahead of the team's. At his age and after the millions he's made, you'd think there would be a better way for him to handle it.

Right now, there is a lot of speculation and very few facts. No one knows what came out of the meeting with Gibbons - Frank and the organization may have decided during the meeting to part ways and Frank's interview was not what brought him down. The comment "I am not going to let my career end like this" tells me that perhaps they parted ways in the meeting.

People forget, and are again forgetting, that baseball is a business. Looking at Frank's contract in a business light, the contract (poorly drafted from Frank's point of view) incentivized the Jays not to play Frank. Business and contracts are all about incentives - in a capitalistic society, the best results are driven when incentives are aligned. In this case, Frank's incentive was to play and play well; the Jays' incentive was to not play him. It is a really simple formula that set incentives at odds and ultimately resulted in his release.

Frank has been poorly served by his agents in the past (see Diminished Skills Clause) and this is just another blatant example. While the Blue Jays organization and coaching staff handled this horribly, Frank's agents ought to be looking for new clients to represent.

With all of that said, I feel for Frank here. This is a business decision that was made with the result of again giving a black eye to one of the greatest players in league history and someone I believe is a really good person. How many stories have we heard about Frank over the last 2-3 years about how he has helped his teammates, was a good clubhouse presence, etc.? There have been numerous.

I am most confused by all of these posts saying "I would kill for a job that would allow me to sit on the couch and collect a check." That is why you are not a professional athlete who has played the game for nearly 20 seasons - Frank's desire to play the game and compete is what still has him playing. He could have walked away several years ago and hung up his spikes, yet he has battled injuries and come back year after year. The game, for Frank, is no longer for the money - it is for the game, the competition, and yes, maybe for the stats (but that is not unlike any other player in the league).

I wish Frank the best and I look forward to him finding himself in a much better situation with a team that can use him for a pennant run.

NardiWasHere
04-20-2008, 04:48 PM
Frank has been poorly served by his agents in the past (see Diminished Skills Clause) and this is just another blatant example.


The diminished skills clause was signed without an agent. I believe JR even warned him not to sign.

Its not being poorly served by his agents, its him being stupid and whiny.

Frontman
04-20-2008, 04:52 PM
The diminished skills clause was signed without an agent. I believe JR even warned him not to sign.

Its not being poorly served by his agents, its him being stupid and whiny.

Agreed. Frank gets himself into these situations either due to hubris or ignorance; or maybe even both.

Chicken Dinner
04-20-2008, 04:54 PM
There's no whining in baseball. :whiner:

ND_Sox_Fan
04-20-2008, 04:57 PM
And another thing...

I like that Toronto has the balls to just eat $10 Mil.

I wish more teams did that.

I just don't understand how White Sox fans can absolutely hate/resent Frank Thomas (as your posts today would suggest).

I understand how Cubs fans could be upset with a star like Sosa, who clearly cheated his way to the production that he put up for them over 13 seasons. I could understand how Phillies fans would dislike Rolen who demanded to be traded (or any other example of a guy who demands a trade).

However, Thomas never did any of that. He did not cheat. He did not demand trades. Sure he may have said some things in the media that did not toe the "company line", but does that give one grounds to hate or resent the best player in franchise history?

Blue Jay's GM JP Ricciardi said it best today: "If you know Frank, he's an emotional guy. He wears his heart on his sleeve. I would be dissappointed if a player didn't have a reaction that he cared."

The Blue Jays made a business decision and so did Frank. However, Frank clearly cared - cared about winning. He played under guys like Torborg, LaMont, Bevington, and Manuel while he was here and Gibbons in Toronto. Frank knows what it is like to be on a losing team with a loser for a manager. He has had to put up with a lot of them, and that drove a lot of his statements.

I don't understand the resentment for Frank on the part of some White Sox fans - never will.

IlliniSox4Life
04-20-2008, 04:59 PM
Frank will get picked up somewhere. It won't be here. There's a lot of teams in the AL that could use his bat.


After Frank Thomas, the person who is least happy with this move is Barry Bonds. Any team that has been thinking about calling him is now on the phone with Frank.

tstrike2000
04-20-2008, 05:02 PM
Agreed. Frank gets himself into these situations either due to hubris or ignorance; or maybe even both.

And at times his inability to stay quiet from the media. On the flipside, he may have signed that AB clause as a personal incentive to keep hitting at a high level. Beside that though, Frank still gave them the best chance to win this year at DH. If the slow start was used as a reason to bench him when it was really about being on the hook for next year, obviously their priorities aren't in place.

Frontman
04-20-2008, 05:05 PM
I don't understand the resentment for Frank on the part of some White Sox fans - never will.

Everyone has different ways of viewing certain players. For a good number of years, I couldn't stand the guy due to a personal experience. I've also softened on my views of him over time, and was really appreciating what he was doing for Toronto last season.

However, you can't deny that fans would have sore feelings for him; as he did a very good job of bashing the Sox on the way out the door (right or wrong, but he did slam the team pretty good.) This of course happened just after the Sox won the Series, so very few Sox fans wanted to hear anything bad about the organization, even by someone who meant so much to the Sox and their fanbase.

NardiWasHere
04-20-2008, 05:06 PM
I just don't understand how White Sox fans can absolutely hate/resent Frank Thomas (as your posts today would suggest).

I don't hate or resent Frank Thomas. In fact, he's one of my favorite players of all time. However, he's an idiot and when he acts like an idiot he frustrates me.

Just because I loved watching him hit a baseball doesn't mean that I'll make excuses for him. He's a dumb guy who squandered a chance to be absolutely beloved.

KW was exactly right when he said, "He's an idiot, he's selfish, and that's why we don't miss him".

All I've said is that this is all his fault. He signs his own contracts, he gives his own interviews, and he makes his own decisions concerning his public image.

Look how Nick Swisher gives an interview. Couldn't Frank pretend to be like that? Instead, he's gotten himself into a lot of trouble by being surly and stupid.

wassagstdu
04-20-2008, 05:09 PM
The Frank Thomas era, the era in which the team was built around Frank Thomas, produced nothing but losers. Maybe he should be a legendary hitter with the Cubs.

("Where's that 'ignore' button?")

Mod Edit: This is a violation of board policy. I sent you a PM warning you that there will be consequences to your membership if you do it again.

:redface:
Apologies. I did not mean that as a threat. I meant that I could see many other posters reaching for the Ignore button against me for dissing Frank Thomas. Note the quotes.

I did not find the post I was responding to in any way objectionable. I should have said "Yes Frank Thomas is a legend, but ..."

Frankfan4life
04-20-2008, 05:12 PM
With the way Konerko and Thome (vs. righthanders) are hitting right now, and the lack of decent hitting from our bench, I can't see why the Sox wouldn't have an interest in bringing the Big Hurt back...

He'd have to be content with a part-time DH/pinch hit role, so I'm not sure if Frank would do it, but I see it akin to bringing in Everett in 2005 to add some pop to the bench...Unfortunately, Frank is not interested in being a part-time DH/pinch hitter. I would like some situation, however, where Frank and the Sox organization can mend fences.

JB98
04-20-2008, 05:20 PM
Unfortunately, Frank is not interested in being a part-time DH/pinch hitter. I would like some situation, however, where Frank and the Sox organization can mend fences.

It is also my hope that the Sox organization and Frank will mend fences somewhere down the line. Frank is arguably the greatest hitter in franchise history, and you hope the acrimony between he and the Sox will eventually end.

That said, I think posters here who want Frank back are insane. He wouldn't be able to play every day for us, and obviously, we're talking about a player who had a snit the minute his manager said his playing time will be cut.

Someone posted that Frank would be a "great fit" here. How? I absolutely 100 percent disagree with that.

Thome is a full-time DH. Konerko is a 1B/DH. Dye is moving toward a point in his career where he'll need to DH more often. Whatever holes we have on our team, DH is clearly not one of them.

kittle42
04-20-2008, 05:24 PM
Frank Thomas would not be a helpful addition to the 2008 White Sox.

Frankfan4life
04-20-2008, 05:26 PM
I don't understand the resentment for Frank on the part of some White Sox fans - never will.

Please count me in with you as someone who is puzzled by the Frank-bashing going on right now. Frank Thomas was the White Sox franchise for many years. I couldn't care less about his whining when he was slugging homers and winning MVP's as a Sox. I enjoyed every minute of it and was grateful to be able to personally witness such a talented player.

ND_Sox_Fan
04-20-2008, 05:26 PM
I don't hate or resent Frank Thomas. In fact, he's one of my favorite players of all time. However, he's an idiot and when he acts like an idiot he frustrates me.

I find it hard to believe that Frank is a "person of subnormal intelligence" or "a person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years" (the definitions of idiot).

In this case, Frank was acting in his best professional and business interests, just as the Blue Jays were. Frank called them out for doing that and in a competitive spirit said, "I am not going to let my career end like this." Tell me how that makes him as an "idiot".

All I've said is that this is all his fault. He signs his own contracts, he gives his own interviews, and he makes his own decisions concerning his public image.

Look how Nick Swisher gives an interview. Couldn't Frank pretend to be like that? Instead, he's gotten himself into a lot of trouble by being surly and stupid.

Frank clearly does not give a rip what you or any other person thinks of his "public image". I happen to think much more highly of a person who doesn't "pretend" to care what other poeple think, who doesn't "pretend" to be someone who he is not, and who doesn't "pretend" to be happy.

Has Frank signed two contracts that weren't ultimately in his own best interest? Sure.

Had the Blue Jays made the decision to bench him and not allow his contract to vest for 2009? Most likely, yes.

Did Frank's comments have anything to do with the Blue Jays decision to cut his playing time? NO.

Did Frank want to be released after he was told he would be sitting the bench in favor of Matt Stairs and Rod Barajas? Most likely, yes.

Did Frank say in public that he was not happy riding the pine? Yes.

So, he made a decision to not sit the bench and instead go look for another team for which to play.

I don't understand how that makes him an "idiot". I think it says that he realized that the current situation wasn't the right one for him, called the Blue Jays out for the motive behind their decision, and left.

FedEx227
04-20-2008, 05:29 PM
Please count me in with you as someone who is puzzled by the Frank-bashing going on right now. Frank Thomas was the White Sox franchise for many years. I couldn't care less about his whining when he was slugging homers and winning MVP's as a Sox. I enjoyed every minute of it and was grateful to be able to personally witness such a talented player.

Nobody hates the player Frank Thomas. I still buy any and all of his baseball cards when I find one that I don't have. But the fact is this guys mouth has gotten him in so much trouble... basically I'd say it's frustration on most fans behalf. We WANT him to be highly-regarded, we WANT to praise him... we WANT to see him be a first-ballot HOFer, but he makes it too hard, he just CANNOT shut up.

A. Cavatica
04-20-2008, 05:32 PM
Realistically, I think the teams that would have the most interest would be MIN and SEA. If he was willing to accept a lesser role, maybe NYY & OAK too.

JB98
04-20-2008, 05:44 PM
Realistically, I think the teams that would have the most interest would be MIN and SEA. If he was willing to accept a lesser role, maybe NYY & OAK too.

I could see him going back to Oakland. He had a good season there in 2006, and certainly, Jack Cust is nothing special as a DH.

Scottiehaswheels
04-20-2008, 05:51 PM
My guess is he signs with Texas. Good hitters park and they need a bat like his. Bradley goes to part time DH/OF.

ND_Sox_Fan
04-20-2008, 05:51 PM
Nobody hates the player Frank Thomas. I still buy any and all of his baseball cards when I find one that I don't have. But the fact is this guys mouth has gotten him in so much trouble... basically I'd say it's frustration on most fans behalf. We WANT him to be highly-regarded, we WANT to praise him... we WANT to see him be a first-ballot HOFer, but he makes it too hard, he just CANNOT shut up.

I think you have to look at this from Frank's perspective, and by doing so, you (and others) will be less upset with Frank.

For 16 of his 19 major league seasons, Frank Thomas has been one of the top few players in the game of baseball. One season ago, Frank lead his team in HRs and RBIs. After 60 at bats the following season, that same team asks him to split time with Stairs and Barajas. Would you be frustrated?

It is no different than a company asking its top salesman to go back to the customer service desk or reassigning his top customers.

I think most people would leave that situation - regardless of the business or career. And, I can't see that salesman hosting a press conference to thank his boss on the way out the door. No, he will probably use the actions of his old firm to sell against his old company within the same industry.

Through his comments, Frank was saying, "I am not done. I still want to play. I can still hit. I still want to win." I can't blame him for not thanking his boss on the way out.

As I said before, I think Frank and the Jays parted ways or at least he and Gibbons agreed that they would part ways during the meeting before Frank talked to the press; not after the comments he made to press.

Lip Man 1
04-20-2008, 05:53 PM
JB:

Jerry Reinsdorf himself in an interview with Chuck Garfine about ten days ago on Comcast Sports Chicago clearly stated the Frank will have his #35 retired and that he will have a statue put up when he retires.

He categorically stated he and Frank get along and that "even if Frank and the G.M. doesn't, that won't change things." (i.e. regarding the number being retired and the statue.)

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
04-20-2008, 06:48 PM
Someone posted that Frank would be a "great fit" here. How? I absolutely 100 percent disagree with that.

Thome is a full-time DH. Konerko is a 1B/DH. Dye is moving toward a point in his career where he'll need to DH more often. Whatever holes we have on our team, DH is clearly not one of them.

Why not trade Paulie before his 10/5 rights kick in? Then Frank and Thome can share 1B/DH duties. :tongue:

oeo
04-20-2008, 07:04 PM
It is also my hope that the Sox organization and Frank will mend fences somewhere down the line. Frank is arguably the greatest hitter in franchise history, and you hope the acrimony between he and the Sox will eventually end.

Kenny != the Sox organization. He's a part of it, but just because those two have had their disagreements does not mean that the organization is on bad terms with Frank.

TomBradley72
04-20-2008, 07:49 PM
Please count me in with you as someone who is puzzled by the Frank-bashing going on right now. Frank Thomas was the White Sox franchise for many years. I couldn't care less about his whining when he was slugging homers and winning MVP's as a Sox. I enjoyed every minute of it and was grateful to be able to personally witness such a talented player.

Speaking for myself. I'm not bashing him as a player or a hitter. I am critical of how he handled this...especially blowing off his teamates at the end of a win because of his personal situation. That part of him has been a pattern for a long time now. He'll have his number retired, he'll get a statue, and I'll be there cheering (as I was in his first game as a member of the Sox and hist 1st game back at the Cell w/Oakland).

munchman33
04-20-2008, 08:14 PM
Frank Thomas would not be a helpful addition to the 2008 White Sox.

People here want to sit Thome against lefties in order to give Brian Anderson at bats.

There would certainly be a useful addition. It just isn't going to happen, for a number of reasons.

manders_01
04-20-2008, 08:28 PM
I don't want to see Frank back in Chicago not because of animosity for him, but the opposite. He may have animosity towards the Sox staff, players and maybe even the fans. I want to make sure that he still like the fans many years from now. I want to know that he goes into the HoF wearing a Sox cap because of his previous relationship with the Sox. Sorry, but I can't help but think of what happened to Fisk and think that it could happen to Frank as well.

flo-B-flo
04-20-2008, 08:28 PM
........ I am critical of how he handled this...especially blowing off his teamates at the end of a win because of his personal situation. Me too..Why involve your teammates when you are pissed about YOUR situation?...

ND_Sox_Fan
04-20-2008, 08:47 PM
Me too..Why involve your teammates when you are pissed about YOUR situation?...

I will caution you not to jump to conclusions based upon the media report. None of us know that Frank and the Blue Jays organization had not already parted ways before the game yesterday.

Was Frank in the dugout during the game? If he was not, I would assume that he had been released prior to the game yesterday. Or had he gone into the clubhouse like a pitcher who had been taken out of the game? I don't think he would have sat in the dugout for the game, and then walked into the clubhouse without congratulating his teammates.

balke
04-20-2008, 08:59 PM
Wasn't Thomas supposed to be on Baseball Tonight? I don't think I saw him. Did anyone else hear them say they'll be talking with Frank Thomas? Will that be later this week?

NADA SURF
04-20-2008, 09:05 PM
Thomas made no effort to get along with anyone with the Sox, it appeared...How did you all forgive him for walking off the field in spring training that time because AROD got that big contract?I could hardly believe what I was reading that day.Everyone hates everyone in that situation. Frank will never come back here. The only thing I didn't like about Kenny, he couldn't find a way to get along with Frank. The guy is a legend and made the Sox a ton of money, and they didn't really have to pay him much for it. Injured or not, people paid a lot more attention to the Sox knowing there was a legendary hitter in the organization.

NADA SURF
04-20-2008, 09:08 PM
Both of them became infants toward the end....Just hang on for Thome, Buehrle, Danks and Jenks wearing their Sox caps at the Hallf of Fame induction ceremony.I don't want to see Frank back in Chicago not because of animosity for him, but the opposite. He may have animosity towards the Sox staff, players and maybe even the fans. I want to make sure that he still like the fans many years from now. I want to know that he goes into the HoF wearing a Sox cap because of his previous relationship with the Sox. Sorry, but I can't help but think of what happened to Fisk and think that it could happen to Frank as well.

Frontman
04-20-2008, 09:09 PM
Wasn't Thomas supposed to be on Baseball Tonight? I don't think I saw him. Did anyone else hear them say they'll be talking with Frank Thomas? Will that be later this week?

I saw Singelton on during Sportscenter, and he said he had talked to Frank earlier (and it sounded like the split was amicable from what Frank told him.) Whomever was hosting Sportscenter said, "We'll see you (meaning Singelton) on Baseball Tonight," so that might be where the confusion came in.

I guess the thing of it is that this is a habit of behavior with Frank, and its easy to jump the gun and make quick decisions when it comes to him.

All I know is that he'll be the second Sox great during my time as a Sox fan who will enter the Hall of Fame, and the only one who started his career with them. (The other player being Carlton Fisk.)

Frontman
04-20-2008, 09:10 PM
Both of them became infants toward the end....Just hang on for Thome, Buehrle, Danks and Jenks wearing their Sox caps at the Hallf of Fame induction ceremony.

Did you really have to jinx four players in a single post?

It's Dankerific
04-20-2008, 09:14 PM
Frank gave a phone interview with BBTN. Listening to him talk, I felt like he was definitely taking a high road and wanted to make sure it was amicable between him and the Jays.

Also, if he's SUCH a bad businessman, he just got the Jays to pay all his salary for doing whatever he wants. He can pick ANY team and play for the league minimum while the Jays foot the bill. Thats a damn good situation.

I was kinda pissed off during the broadcast because they asked Peter Gammons about the situation and he said something to the effect "if barry bonds cant get a job, how is frank?" Um, well Frank didnt do steroids, doesnt have possible jail/court time in his near future and can REALISTICALLY sign for 300k. WOW. Peter, go back to talking about Boston.

Frontman
04-20-2008, 09:17 PM
I was kinda pissed off during the broadcast because they asked Peter Gammons about the situation and he said something to the effect "if barry bonds cant get a job, how is frank?" Um, well Frank didnt do steroids, doesnt have possible jail/court time in his near future and can REALISTICALLY sign for 300k. WOW. Peter, go back to talking about Boston.

You're joking, right?

*looks, sees no teal*

You're aren't joking. Gotta love how they (ESPN) can overlook the fiasco attached to Bonds and his upcoming trial and think it wouldn't factor into a team's decision to sign him.

It's Dankerific
04-20-2008, 09:28 PM
You're joking, right?

*looks, sees no teal*

You're aren't joking. Gotta love how they (ESPN) can overlook the fiasco attached to Bonds and his upcoming trial and think it wouldn't factor into a team's decision to sign him.

It was like he was living in an alternate universe. He's probably wondering why the Rocket hasn't been signed by the Red Sox after Schilling went down..

kittle42
04-20-2008, 09:30 PM
People here want to sit Thome against lefties in order to give Brian Anderson at bats.

There would certainly be a useful addition. It just isn't going to happen, for a number of reasons.

He'd only be useful if the White Sox had any interest in sitting one of their best hitters every time a lefty pitches. They don't, thankfully.

Oldfellah
04-20-2008, 09:37 PM
Future Hall of Famer and he gets the heave ho just because of..... What an ass Gibbons is, or whomever made the decision!!! :upsidehead:

oeo
04-20-2008, 10:08 PM
I don't want to see Frank back in Chicago not because of animosity for him, but the opposite. He may have animosity towards the Sox staff, players and maybe even the fans. I want to make sure that he still like the fans many years from now. I want to know that he goes into the HoF wearing a Sox cap because of his previous relationship with the Sox. Sorry, but I can't help but think of what happened to Fisk and think that it could happen to Frank as well.

Which hat he wears is not his decision. Unless he plays for another 10+ years and puts up big numbers in them, he's going to wear a Sox hat in the Hall.

Besides, what other hat is he going to wear?

Both of them became infants toward the end....Just hang on for Thome, Buehrle, Danks and Jenks wearing their Sox caps at the Hallf of Fame induction ceremony.

IF Thome makes the the Hall of Fame (and that's a big if), he won't be wearing a Sox hat. As much as they dislike him in Cleveland now, unfortunately, that's the hat he would wear.

And calling Buehrle, Danks, and Jenks Hall of Famers is laughable at this point in their careers.

Future Hall of Famer and he gets the heave ho just because of..... What an ass Gibbons is, or whomever made the decision!!! :upsidehead:

It was a mutual decision.

Frankfan4life
04-20-2008, 10:28 PM
JB:

Jerry Reinsdorf himself in an interview with Chuck Garfine about ten days ago on Comcast Sports Chicago clearly stated the Frank will have his #35 retired and that he will have a statue put up when he retires.

He categorically stated he and Frank get along and that "even if Frank and the G.M. doesn't, that won't change things." (i.e. regarding the number being retired and the statue.)

LipUnfortunately, I missed that interview. But knowing that takes a big load off my mind. I would hope that Kenny and Frank can declare a truce so that the whole organization will fully embrace The Big Hurt's legacy. And, maybe after Frank retires, if he is willing, he can join the Sox in some other capacity.

Oldfellah
04-20-2008, 10:35 PM
It was a mutual decision.

Hmmm,,, I wish I was a fly on the wall for that convo!

oeo
04-20-2008, 10:37 PM
Hmmm,,, I wish I was a fly on the wall for that convo!

Frank wasn't happy, and they didn't want him unhappy.

Frank said there were absolutely no hard feelings. He made a point on BBTN that everything was fine between him and the Jays.

JaysFan
04-21-2008, 12:15 AM
From the Jays perspective:

1) This move was not done to get at-bats for a Stairs/Barajas platoon at DH as much as it was to get Adam Lind in the lineup everyday. Lind has been bothered by a stiff neck the last couple days and probably would've been in Toronto today if not for that injury. Look for him to join the Jays as the everyday LF on Tuesday in Orlando for the Rays' series.

2) The Jays DO NOT want 40-year-old Matt Stairs playing the field and are better off with him facing RHP in a DH platoon with Shannon Stewart. Stairs had a better year than Frank last year and was well on his way to the same this year. People who say that this guy sucks obviously haven't watched him the past year or so. The ideal situation would've been to have a platoon at DH with Stairs against righties, Frank against lefties, but Frank's pride wouldn't allow it. Can't really blame him, he's been an everyday player for his whole career.

3) Regarding the timing, it's important to note that Gibbons and Ricciardi both have a vested interest in winning games in April and May. Both are on the hot seat and a slow start early in the year would likely result in both meet their demise. Neither of these guys can afford to wait for Frank to come around for their own job's sake. They don't care if Frank mashes 30 home runs in the final 4 months of the season, if they're not around to see it.

4) Going with the above point, if Frank had accepted a platoon/pinch hitter role for a few games and had actually shown some signs of turning it around, he probably would've gotten his job back. If he was hitting at an acceptable rate, JP would have no problems letting Frank get his 304 plate appearances and 2009 option, as Frank would probably be helping JP and Gibbons both keep their jobs.

SluggersAway
04-21-2008, 12:40 AM
Look at it from Frank's perspective.

He is one of the most amazing players ever to play the game.

Thomas is the only player in major league history to have seven consecutive seasons of a .300 average, and at least 100 walks, 100 runs, 100 runs batted in, and 20 home runs (from 1991 to 1997). The only other player to have more than five consecutive seasons accomplishing this feat was Ted Williams with six.

There are only five players in history who have both hit more home runs and have a higher career batting average than Thomas (Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth, and Ted Williams).

He is one of only two first basemen in history to win consecutive Most Valuable Player awards in the major leagues, and yet was an All-Star only 4 times.

All of the sudden these fools pumped up with speed, steroids and HGH come along and take all the glory away.

Frank Thomas is the cream of the crop and no one can take that away!

ND_Sox_Fan
04-21-2008, 01:29 AM
Anyone else see the interview that Frank just did on BBTN? It was nothing but class from Frank.

"No hard feelings." "I understand the business-side of the game." "The Blue Jays have a great team, and they signed a bunch of lucrative contracts with young players, which didn't leave much room for me next year." "They have been talking about the contract next year for a while." "I wish we had dealt with this during Spring Training." "No hard feelings."

petekat
04-21-2008, 01:35 AM
no, but thanks for bringing this up. Good luck to Frank, hope he catches on somewhere, just not the Twins. Wouldn't mind seeing him out in Seattle, or in Baltimore where I live now. Especially if he can help the scrappy O's surge past the Blue Jays, costing both Ricciardi and Gibbons their job. Wouldn't that be a hoot!:bandance:


Anyone else see the interview that Frank just did on BBTN? It was nothing but class from Frank.

"No hard feelings." "I understand the business-side of the game." "The Blue Jays have a great team, and they signed a bunch of lucrative contracts with young players, which didn't leave much room for me next year." "They have been talking about the contract next year for a while." "I wish we had dealt with this during Spring Training." "No hard feelings."

NADA SURF
04-21-2008, 02:14 AM
QUOTE: IF Thome makes the the Hall of Fame (and that's a big if), he won't be wearing a Sox hat. As much as they dislike him in Cleveland now, unfortunately, that's the hat he would wear.

And calling Buehrle, Danks, and Jenks Hall of Famers is laughable at this point in their careers.

It's also laughable that anyone would care if Thomas or Fisk would wear Sox hats at the Hall. They cared way too much about themselves for anyone else to care about them.

RadioheadRocks
04-21-2008, 02:40 AM
QUOTE: IF Thome makes the the Hall of Fame (and that's a big if), he won't be wearing a Sox hat. As much as they dislike him in Cleveland now, unfortunately, that's the hat he would wear.


Point taken, but perhaps the powers that be in Cooperstown would have a change of heart if they watched a Sox-Indians game in Cleveland and saw how classless and disrespectful their fans are towards Thome. I for one would love to see the HOF flip those idiots the bird by allowing Thome to wear either a Phillies or Sox cap on his plaque.

TDog
04-21-2008, 03:20 AM
Look at it from Frank's perspective.

He is one of the most amazing players ever to play the game. ...
There are only five players in history who have both hit more home runs and have a higher career batting average than Thomas (Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth, and Ted Williams). ...

I don't want to sound negative. Really, my feelings about Frank Thomas are irrelevant because I know my feelings won't change the fact that he will never play for the White Sox ever again.

I post only to point out that Jimmie Foxx, Mel Ott and Babe Ruth were released by teams at or near the end of their careers, although Ted Williams was allowed to retire on his own terms. Of course, Williams batted .388 at the age of 38. Thomas only hit .270 at 38. And that was a couple of years ago.

SluggersAway
04-21-2008, 03:39 AM
I post only to point out that Jimmie Foxx, Mel Ott and Babe Ruth were released by teams at or near the end of their careers, although Ted Williams was allowed to retire on his own terms. Of course, Williams batted .388 at the age of 38. Thomas only hit .270 at 38. And that was a couple of years ago.

I was not posting to try to argue against his release, there was a lot more going on than only career numbers. I was just pointing out that Frank Thomas is/was something special.

Thome25
04-21-2008, 08:03 AM
Even though Frank has a big mouth and has been known to stick his foot in it, I blame the Blue Jays for this situation.

You gotta give a player more than 3 freaking weeks to get out of a funk. You can't bench a guy that early. Give him a day or two off.....yes....but not totally benched this early. Especially a HOF-caliber player at that. If this move would've happened in July I could understand but, The 3rd week of April? Come on.....totally classless on the Blue Jays part.

Frank has been known to start the season pretty slow in the past. It looks like he might land with The Orioles, Rangers, or Mariners. My bet is on the Tigers. They've been having injury problems with Sheffield and Frank may want to stick it to the White Sox by playing for a division rival.

dickallen15
04-21-2008, 08:16 AM
Even though Frank has a big mouth and has been known to stick his foot in it, I blame the Blue Jays for this situation.

You gotta give a player more than 3 freaking weeks to get out of a funk. You can't bench a guy that early. Give him a day or two off.....yes....but not totally benched this early. Especially a HOF-caliber player at that. If this move would've happened in July I could understand but, The 3rd week of April? Come on.....totally classless on the Blue Jays part.

Frank has been known to start the season pretty slow in the past. It looks like he might land with The Orioles, Rangers, or Mariners. My bet is on the Tigers. They've been having injury problems with Sheffield and Frank may want to stick it to the White Sox by playing for a division rival.

He was told he would be playing 2 or 3 times a week. If he started hitting well again, I'm quite certain he would have regained his job. Anyway, the Blue Jays will have paid him $18 million for his services. I think they were more than fair.

balke
04-21-2008, 09:15 AM
Anyone else see the interview that Frank just did on BBTN? It was nothing but class from Frank.

"No hard feelings." "I understand the business-side of the game." "The Blue Jays have a great team, and they signed a bunch of lucrative contracts with young players, which didn't leave much room for me next year." "They have been talking about the contract next year for a while." "I wish we had dealt with this during Spring Training." "No hard feelings."

Oh my god, what a crybaby. All he ever does is whine.

soxfan13
04-21-2008, 10:54 AM
Look at it from Frank's perspective.

He is one of the most amazing Hitters ever to play the game.

Thomas is the only player in major league history to have seven consecutive seasons of a .300 average, and at least 100 walks, 100 runs, 100 runs batted in, and 20 home runs (from 1991 to 1997). The only other player to have more than five consecutive seasons accomplishing this feat was Ted Williams with six.

There are only five players in history who have both hit more home runs and have a higher career batting average than Thomas (Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth, and Ted Williams).

He is one of only two first basemen in history to win consecutive Most Valuable Player awards in the major leagues, and yet was an All-Star only 4 times.

All of the sudden these fools pumped up with speed, steroids and HGH come along and take all the glory away.

Frank Thomas is the cream of the crop and no one can take that away!

Fixed part of that for you.

voodoochile
04-21-2008, 11:02 AM
Fixed part of that for you.

Right, because when people mention Babe Ruth being the greatest player ever, thy always mention his throwing arm first...

Steve Metsch
04-21-2008, 11:13 AM
Can't say I was too surprised, since heard that Toronto was thinking about this. If interesed about more Sox talk in the south suburbs,, check out http://blogs.southtownstar.com/whitesox/

The SouthtownStar wanted a Sox fan to spout off. Guess 40 years qualifies.

TomBradley72
04-21-2008, 12:19 PM
Right, because when people mention Babe Ruth being the greatest player ever, thy always mention his throwing arm first...

He was a hell of a pitcher in addition to being a great hitter.

voodoochile
04-21-2008, 12:41 PM
He was a hell of a pitcher in addition to being a great hitter.

Yes, yes he was, but it's not why he is considered the greatest ever.

balke
04-21-2008, 12:52 PM
Frank wasn't bad at 1B. Not special, but not bad. I think he wasn't allowed to play there, mainly because they didn't want him to get injured. And PK is excellent at 1B. I was just saying if there was a hard up team in the NL that wanted a power 1Bman, he could probably do that since he'd only get paid league minimum as it is.

Edit: I should actually take that back, because he has aged a few years since I've seen him play there.

ChiSoxlukes
04-21-2008, 01:42 PM
Sox should pick up the Big Hurt to hit as the DH against lefties. Also serves as insurance should Thome get hurt. I realize the relationship between Big Frank and KW so it won't happen, but what would you guys think?

doublem23
04-21-2008, 01:45 PM
Sox should pick up the Big Hurt to hit as the DH against lefties. Also serves as insurance should Thome get hurt. I realize the relationship between Big Frank and KW so it won't happen, but what would you guys think?

Somebody will give him the chance to play everyday.

The only way I'd like to see him come back to the Sox is to sign like a 1-day contract, play a game (preferably against a left-handed starter), and then retire as a member of the White Sox. That said, I'm sure you couldn't pull that off what with the rosters and moving people around for what would be nothing more than a farewell. Just a little dream scenario.

balke
04-21-2008, 01:51 PM
Sox should pick up the Big Hurt to hit as the DH against lefties. Also serves as insurance should Thome get hurt. I realize the relationship between Big Frank and KW so it won't happen, but what would you guys think?

Hehe, I can just hear Hawk "Where's he gonna PLAY!?"

2 DH's is one too many. The Sox have to have people play the field.

TDog
04-21-2008, 03:38 PM
Yes, yes he was, but it's not why he is considered the greatest ever.

Actually, his pitching prowess is an integral part of the argument of why Babe Ruth was the greatest ever when, considering that Henry Aaron passed him on the all-time home run list long ago and a number of guys, including Ted Williams, had higher career batting averages.

Babe Ruth actually beat the Cubs in the 1918 World Series as a pitcher, establishing a World Series consecutive scoreless innings record that lasted for more than 40 years, longer than his single season home run record. He also beat the Cubs in the World Series in the 1930s with the long ball, even calling a shot, according to the mythology.

Babe Ruth also stole home eight times, but he ended one World Series in the 1920s by inexplicably being caught stealing, so his baserunning isn't part of the argument.

I loved Frank Thomas when he was with the Sox, but even when he was playing first base, perhaps especially when he was playing first base, he was primarily a hitter.

voodoochile
04-21-2008, 04:14 PM
Actually, his pitching prowess is an integral part of the argument of why Babe Ruth was the greatest ever when, considering that Henry Aaron passed him on the all-time home run list long ago and a number of guys, including Ted Williams, had higher career batting averages.

Babe Ruth actually beat the Cubs in the 1918 World Series as a pitcher, establishing a World Series consecutive scoreless innings record that lasted for more than 40 years, longer than his single season home run record. He also beat the Cubs in the World Series in the 1930s with the long ball, even calling a shot, according to the mythology.

Babe Ruth also stole home eight times, but he ended one World Series in the 1920s by inexplicably being caught stealing, so his baserunning isn't part of the argument.

I loved Frank Thomas when he was with the Sox, but even when he was playing first base, perhaps especially when he was playing first base, he was primarily a hitter.

Okay, so Ruth isn't a perfect example. The point remains, for non-pitchers the criteria of what constitutes greatness is overwhelmingly based on their offensive prowess.

Quick, off the top of your head:

What's Ted Williams career FLD%?

Mickey Mantle's Range Factor?

Ty Cobb's Zone Rating?

None of these guys is considered a great player because of their defense. Yes, Mantle in particular was a good defender (as was Willie Mays), but through the history of baseball, the greatness of position players has always been judge primarily on their ability to "see baseball, hit baseball". Everything else is WAY down the list. Based on that, Franks is a great player.

TDog
04-21-2008, 05:11 PM
Okay, so Ruth isn't a perfect example. The point remains, for non-pitchers the criteria of what constitutes greatness is overwhelmingly based on their offensive prowess.

Quick, off the top of your head:

What's Ted Williams career FLD%?

Mickey Mantle's Range Factor?

Ty Cobb's Zone Rating?

None of these guys is considered a great player because of their defense. Yes, Mantle in particular was a good defender (as was Willie Mays), but through the history of baseball, the greatness of position players has always been judge primarily on their ability to "see baseball, hit baseball". Everything else is WAY down the list. Based on that, Franks is a great player.

I understand your argument. I'm not even disputing your argument, although I more often think of Ted Williams as a great hitter and Willie Mays as a great player. And Ted Willilams is my favorite baseball player of all-time.

I think of Luis Aparicio as a great player, even though (without looking it up), I believe he only hit over .280 once in his career -- .313 with the 1970 White Sox. I think of Harold Baines as a great player because I remember him not only hitting but playing an exceptional right field with a cannon arm before injuries to his knees prohibited him from moving laterally and relegated him to DH. I remember watching Frank Thomas at first base and only think of him as a great hitter.

As hitters go, Thomas was great in his prime, taking nothing away to his value to the White Sox. Fortunately, Thomas is playing in an era where he doesn't even have to own a glove so that posterity will only have to remember him as a hitter.

It may have more to do with the total weight of a player's contribution to his team as to whether I consider him a great hitter, a great defender (i.e. Mike Squires) or a great player. But it's purely a matter of semantics and really not worth arguing over.

rowand33
04-21-2008, 09:55 PM
this article pissed me off:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AqjHwQbDRLpM7vLpl3gIKB4RvLYF?slug=releas ingfrankthomasmake&prov=tsn&type=lgns

Really, just the last line.

It's Dankerific
04-21-2008, 09:59 PM
I doubt Big Frank is still looking for a team on May 1.

Nellie_Fox
04-22-2008, 01:05 AM
I heard an interesting spin on Frank's defense this morning while listening to XM. They had Torborg on and were asking him about Frank because of his current situation. Of course he talked about Frank as a hitter, but said that, contrary to common belief, Frank was an above-average first baseman with soft hands. It was only his throwing that was a problem, and mostly because they were afraid that the strange arm slot he had to use would eventually injure his shoulder to the point that it would affect his hitting.

WizardsofOzzie
04-23-2008, 11:09 AM
Looks like the A's are showing interest
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3361270

Frater Perdurabo
04-23-2008, 03:58 PM
I heard an interesting spin on Frank's defense this morning while listening to XM. They had Torborg on and were asking him about Frank because of his current situation. Of course he talked about Frank as a hitter, but said that, contrary to common belief, Frank was an above-average first baseman with soft hands. It was only his throwing that was a problem, and mostly because they were afraid that the strange arm slot he had to use would eventually injure his shoulder to the point that it would affect his hitting.

Thank you for sharing this! Frank certainly wasn't athletic enough to play SS or CF, but he was athletic enough to play TE for Auburn.

Did Torborg elaborate on what he meant by "the strange arm slot he had to use?" Put in the form of a rhetorical question, why couldn't they just work with him to throw from a different arm slot?

TDog
04-23-2008, 04:43 PM
Thank you for sharing this! Frank certainly wasn't athletic enough to play SS or CF, but he was athletic enough to play TE for Auburn.

Did Torborg elaborate on what he meant by "the strange arm slot he had to use?" Put in the form of a rhetorical question, why couldn't they just work with him to throw from a different arm slot?

I haven't heard or read anything that Torborg said about Thomas' throwing, but the word around the league when Thomas was playing first base was that he had a mental block about throwing. And that seemingly was exploited by Lou Piniella in the last Sox play in the 2000 season. Certainly Torborg would have been in better position to know. Indeed, it was throwing from first -- not fielding ground balls, underhanding to the pitcher covering or digging throws out of the dirt -- that made him a bad firstbaseman.

voodoochile
04-23-2008, 05:36 PM
I haven't heard or read anything that Torborg said about Thomas' throwing, but the word around the league when Thomas was playing first base was that he had a mental block about throwing. And that seemingly was exploited by Lou Piniella in the last Sox play in the 2000 season. Certainly Torborg would have been in better position to know. Indeed, it was throwing from first -- not fielding ground balls, underhanding to the pitcher covering or digging throws out of the dirt -- that made him a bad firstbaseman.

LOL!

That's just extremely funny. Talking about a firstbaseman's throwing arm...

giggle...

Isn't that like the very last criteria why you select a guy to play 1B?

I mean on the list of criteria for why you pick a guy to play 1B that would be like reason #350 or something?

snicker...

Lip Man 1
04-23-2008, 06:48 PM
Thomas was in fact a very GOOD, very athletic first baseman in the early days. I have many plays of him making acrobatic dives and catches in the early 90's on tape.

There were two problems with Frank.

1. Was the fact that when he was playing TE as a Auburn freshman (with a teammate named Bo Jackson) he took a hit on his shoulder. It damaged the ligaments and separated it. I don't know if he had surgery or not but it was never the same again. Apparently there was some issues with him trying to throw because his natural motion caused him to drop down,sidearm, somewhat and that did put pressure of the shoulder. I can also show you tape of where Frank was absolutely brutal trying to throw to second to start or complete double plays or pick a guy off.

2. From what I understand it did become somewhat of a mental thing with Frank as time progressed. He did not want to embarrass himself or hurt the club and he knew the word had gotten out about his throwing which is why he eventually embraced the idea of becoming a full time DH.

As an aside remember in Jack McDowell's WSI interview Jack said he thought the Sox were going to sign Mark McGwire after the 1991 season (you can read the entire comments for yourself) but they didn't because Frank refused to move to full time DH at that point in his career. Based on Jack's statements it's apparent that Frank's shoulder hadn't reached the point yet where it was a real risk but it would by oh I'd say 1995-1996.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
04-23-2008, 07:47 PM
Thank you, Lip, for that excellent background info!

I agree with Voodoo, though, that arm strength really isn't a major consideration for a first baseman.

I wonder how much Herm Schneider worked with Frank on his throwing motion and/or rehabbing the old injury.

TDog
04-23-2008, 08:36 PM
Thomas was in fact a very GOOD, very athletic first baseman in the early days. I have many plays of him making acrobatic dives and catches in the early 90's on tape.

There were two problems with Frank.

1. Was the fact that when he was playing TE as a Auburn freshman (with a teammate named Bo Jackson) he took a hit on his shoulder. It damaged the ligaments and separated it. I don't know if he had surgery or not but it was never the same again. Apparently there was some issues with him trying to throw because his natural motion caused him to drop down,sidearm, somewhat and that did put pressure of the shoulder. I can also show you tape of where Frank was absolutely brutal trying to throw to second to start or complete double plays or pick a guy off.

2. From what I understand it did become somewhat of a mental thing with Frank as time progressed. He did not want to embarrass himself or hurt the club and he knew the word had gotten out about his throwing which is why he eventually embraced the idea of becoming a full time DH.

As an aside remember in Jack McDowell's WSI interview Jack said he thought the Sox were going to sign Mark McGwire after the 1991 season (you can read the entire comments for yourself) but they didn't because Frank refused to move to full time DH at that point in his career. Based on Jack's statements it's apparent that Frank's shoulder hadn't reached the point yet where it was a real risk but it would by oh I'd say 1995-1996.

Lip

This is an excellent explanation that seems to confirm what what we've been hearing about Frank Thomas at first base.

I should point out for the people who laugh off the notion that a first baseman's arm should be of any concern, Thomas played first in at least 150 games in only two seasons, his MVP seasons actually. In one of those years he made 15 errors. In another he was charged with 13. That's a lot of errors for a firstbaseman. They may not all have been throwing errors. It would take hours at the Baseball Retrosheet to break down what sorts of errors they were. But during those two seasons his ratio of assists to errros was less than 7 to 1. In strike shortened 1994, Thomas played 99 games at first and recorded 45 assists and committed 7 errros. That too is less than 7 to 1.

A firstbaseman doesn't need to have a strong arm, but when base stealers break early knowing that the firstbaseman can't throw them out at second if the pitcher throws over, or when runners from first go to third on groundouts hit to slowly for plays at second because they know the firstbaseman won't quickly and accurately throw the ball across the diamond, you have a hole in your defense.

That really isn't the point of the thread, though, because Thomas hasn't played in the field since he left Chicago.

StepsInSC
04-23-2008, 09:03 PM
Rotoworld reporting Oakland has signed Thomas.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/HeadLines.aspx?sport=MLB&hl=235212

StepsInSC
04-23-2008, 09:37 PM
Now reporting that another team made a last minute offer right before Thomas signed with the A's....and Thomas is still deciding.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/HeadLines.aspx?sport=MLB&hl=235226

Foulke You
04-24-2008, 12:00 AM
I really hope he signs with the A's or another team outside our division. I'd hate to see him in a Twins or Tigers uniform and putting a hurtin' on us.:(:

Scottiehaswheels
04-24-2008, 12:28 AM
Now reporting that another team made a last minute offer right before Thomas signed with the A's....and Thomas is still deciding.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/HeadLines.aspx?sport=MLB&hl=235226
I'd be willing to bet it's the Rangers.. That would be a tough call for Frank... Does winning matter more to him at this point than his personal stats?

NoShoesJoe
04-24-2008, 01:50 AM
Joliet Jackhammers have made an offer for Frank!

Wow

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080423&content_id=2574990&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

NADA SURF
04-24-2008, 03:23 AM
Did you really have to jinx four players in a single post?
Those players keep an eye on posts like this and say to themselves: "That guy on WSI believes in me, so I'm going to go ahead and make it to the Hall."
There is no jinx...Just watch.

Steelrod
04-24-2008, 04:31 AM
I'd be willing to bet it's the Rangers.. That would be a tough call for Frank... Does winning matter more to him at this point than his personal stats?
lol

StepsInSC
04-24-2008, 09:00 AM
I'd be willing to bet it's the Rangers.. That would be a tough call for Frank... Does winning matter more to him at this point than his personal stats?

I'm not a believer that Oakland has a shot at winning this year, in spite of their good start...

Personally I hope he goes for what is best for his personal stats. Go Texas and get that many more games in the "Rangers Ballpark at Arlington" rather than the McAfee f/k/a Network Associates Coliseum of Oakland" or whatever the hell these places are called now.

Tough call if the mystery team is Seattle...

soxfan13
04-24-2008, 10:24 AM
I'd be willing to bet it's the Rangers.. That would be a tough call for Frank... Does winning matter more to him at this point than his personal stats?

Did it ever?

eriqjaffe
04-24-2008, 12:59 PM
Frank's gone back to Oakland.

http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20080424&content_id=2579522&vkey=pr_oak&fext=.jsp&c_id=oak

VeeckAsInWreck
04-24-2008, 01:10 PM
I'm just glad he's not in the AL Central. I know Minnesota was interested.

Huisj
04-24-2008, 01:11 PM
I don't really see how he's going to play more there than he played in Toronto. They've got 3 DH's now with him, Sweeney, and Cust. How is that going to work?

soxinem1
04-24-2008, 01:15 PM
Cust is not doing anything other than striking out, and Sweeney has not been productive.

Frank will get AB's.

Plus, why would he want to go to SEA? Frank can still hit HR's, but he would be minimalized in Safeco.

StepsInSC
04-24-2008, 01:31 PM
I don't really see how he's going to play more there than he played in Toronto. They've got 3 DH's now with him, Sweeney, and Cust. How is that going to work?

Having 2 crappy DHs doesn't really threaten Thomas' playing time.

turners56
04-24-2008, 01:37 PM
It's good that Frank didn't sign with the Twins or Tigers...he's back with Oakland again, best of luck to him.

Frontman
04-24-2008, 01:41 PM
Good luck to Frank. Like I said, I didn't want to see him forced into retirement like that.

JB98
04-24-2008, 02:13 PM
Like others have said, I am relieved that Frank did not sign with a team in our division.

If he had gone to Minnesota, that could have changed the outlook a bit. Despite his early struggles, I assume Frank is still going to hit his 25-30 bombs and drive in 80-90 runs.

Arkham
04-24-2008, 02:35 PM
So, Oakland, which got Frank's rebound year for a bargain price, let Toronto pay the resulting FA contract, then gets him back for the rest of the season for the prorated league minimum....

:angry:

VeeckAsInWreck
04-24-2008, 02:45 PM
So, Oakland, which got Frank's rebound year for a bargain price, let Toronto pay the resulting FA contract, then gets him back for the rest of the season for the prorated league minimum....

:angry:

It was Billy Beane's plan all along. That is why he is much better than KW!

TDog
04-24-2008, 03:33 PM
I heard the A's announcers say a couple of times this spring that "the kids can play." It should be deja vu for Frank Thomas. I'm a little surprised because the A's already have two designated hitters. Jack Cust is off to a really lousy start, though. Despite a strong showing last season, he is light years from being Frank Thomas anyway. (There are some A's fans who feel toward Cust the way some Sox fans feel toward Josh Fields, but such fans don't fill out the lineup card.)

Geren says Thomas is the full-time DH. Thomas wouldn't be going to Oakland if Cust were going to be the DH against righties, of course.

When Thomas was with the White Sox, he usually got off to a bad start. I don't know if it is the April weather that slows Thomas down -- that is whether he warms up with the weather or when he gets at bats. I wonder if the transition to returning to Oakland will affect his recovery from his slow start.

I still loathe the A's, as I have with every fiber of my being since 1970. Some Sox fans take the loathing back to Kansas City and September of 1967. The problem with Thomas going back to Oakland is that a lot of Sox fans will suddenly become A's fans again.

EndemicSox
04-24-2008, 03:45 PM
Good for the Hurt, can't wait to see him in Chicago come July 3rd-6th...I'm guessing this is his last year, so I look forward to giving him one last ovation...:(:

A's will be playing in Detroit starting 8/8 and 9/8, and Min 8/18...if you can't see the greatest Sox hitter I've ever witnessed in Chicago...

Chrisaway
04-24-2008, 03:48 PM
I heard the A's announcers say a couple of times this spring that "the kids can play." It should be deja vu for Frank Thomas. I'm a little surprised because the A's already have two designated hitters. Jack Cust is off to a really lousy start, though. Despite a strong showing last season, he is light years from being Frank Thomas anyway. (There are some A's fans who feel toward Cust the way some Sox fans feel toward Josh Fields, but such fans don't fill out the lineup card.)

Geren says Thomas is the full-time DH. Thomas wouldn't be going to Oakland if Cust were going to be the DH against righties, of course.

When Thomas was with the White Sox, he usually got off to a bad start. I don't know if it is the April weather that slows Thomas down -- that is whether he warms up with the weather or when he gets at bats. I wonder if the transition to returning to Oakland will affect his recovery from his slow start.

I still loathe the A's, as I have with every fiber of my being since 1970. Some Sox fans take the loathing back to Kansas City and September of 1967. The problem with Thomas going back to Oakland is that a lot of Sox fans will suddenly become A's fans again.

I'll root for Frank but thats about it when it comes to Oakland.

TDog
04-24-2008, 03:59 PM
I'll root for Frank but thats about it when it comes to Oakland.

I didn't root for A.J. Pierzynski when he played for the Twins, and I won't root for Frank Thomas when he plays for the A's.

Chrisaway
04-24-2008, 04:05 PM
I didn't root for A.J. Pierzynski when he played for the Twins, and I won't root for Frank Thomas when he plays for the A's.

That's different though. A.J. was with the Twins BEFORE he came here. Frank was probably the greatest hitter ever to don a Sox uniform. Now if he went to the Twins or another division rival, I'd find it harder to root for him. But we barely play Oakland so I'll wish him the best when he isn't playing us.

aryzner
04-24-2008, 04:07 PM
Frank already has walked today and Oakland is killing the Twins 6-1 in the 1st. Twinkies even had to bring in relief for Liriano already. :o:

Nellie_Fox
04-24-2008, 04:10 PM
I won't root for Frank Thomas when he plays for the A's.Hell, I'll turn on Oakland games on my Extra Innings package just to watch Frank's at bats, just like I did with Toronto until they released him.

Arkham
04-24-2008, 04:20 PM
Looks like Oakland's playing Sweeney at 1st and DHing Frank. Frank walked in his first PA against a horrible Liriano who gave up 5 singles and 3 walks in two-thirds of an inning. Frank would be brought around (one base at a time, natch) to score.

TDog
04-24-2008, 04:28 PM
That's different though. A.J. was with the Twins BEFORE he came here. Frank was probably the greatest hitter ever to don a Sox uniform. Now if he went to the Twins or another division rival, I'd find it harder to root for him. But we barely play Oakland so I'll wish him the best when he isn't playing us.

Of course it's different. The point is, I cheer for my team and not individual players, unless they are people I know on a personal level. I've never met Frank Thomas, and he obviously doesn't care anything about me. If the Sox had won a few more games in 1988, Thomas could have been drafted by the Cubs, and then we would all hate him.

I would like to see the A's lose every game they play against teams that aren't the Sox rivals. Thomas playing for the A's doesn't change that. As if I became a Red Sox fan when the Sox traded Luis Aparicio after the 1970 season. What most bothers me is that people will cheer for Thomas to do well against the Sox this season. If my own brother were playing against the Sox, I would hope he failed miserably.

Nellie_Fox
04-24-2008, 04:37 PM
What most bothers me is that people will cheer for Thomas to do well against the Sox this season. If my own brother were playing against the Sox, I would hope he failed miserably.I can handle both at the same time. I can hope Frank goes 3 for 5 with a knock and 3 RBI, and the Sox win 5-3.

TDog
04-24-2008, 04:44 PM
I can handle both at the same time. I can hope Frank goes 3 for 5 with a knock and 3 RBI, and the Sox win 5-3.


In the real world, the Sox don't play with such as margin for error. In 2006, Thomas pretty much knocked the Sox out of the race during a series in Oakland.

Jaffar
04-24-2008, 05:06 PM
I can handle both at the same time. I can hope Frank goes 3 for 5 with a knock and 3 RBI, and the Sox win 5-3.

I think this is all some people read. I'm completely with you Nellie. There was a guy in 2006 a few seats from me when Thomas returned for the first time and he tried starting fights with fans that stood up and cheered for Frank in his first at bat, I thought his head was going to explode as the game went on. FYI we won that game and Thomas played great.

DSpivack
04-24-2008, 05:13 PM
I think this is all some people read. I'm completely with you Nellie. There was a guy in 2006 a few seats from me when Thomas returned for the first time and he tried starting fights with fans that stood up and cheered for Frank in his first at bat, I thought his head was going to explode as the game went on. FYI we won that game and Thomas played great.

The Big Hurt hit 2 HR's, the White Sox beat the A's in the bottom of the 9th (or was it the 10th) on a squeeze by Pablo.

TDog
04-24-2008, 05:17 PM
The Big Hurt hit 2 HR's, the White Sox beat the A's in the bottom of the 9th (or was it the 10th) on a squeeze by Pablo.

It wasn't a squeeze, but you have the rest of the story right. Since then Thomas' success against the White Sox have led to the White Sox losing.

kaufsox
04-25-2008, 01:48 AM
I can handle both at the same time. I can hope Frank goes 3 for 5 with a knock and 3 RBI, and the Sox win 5-3.

So can I, and I can also cheer individual players that I like to watch, usually not against the Sox. I also applaud players I like when they play against the Sox, I just hope they make an out in that particular instance. I can't say I know any major leaguer personally, but I still like to cheer for a lot of them.

IlliniSox4Life
04-25-2008, 04:20 AM
It wasn't a squeeze, but you have the rest of the story right. Since then Thomas' success against the White Sox have led to the White Sox losing.

I don't know what the correct term for it is, but it was a walkoff bunt hit.

MISoxfan
04-25-2008, 06:04 AM
In the real world, the Sox don't play with such as margin for error. In 2006, Thomas pretty much knocked the Sox out of the race during a series in Oakland.

In the real world what Nellie_Fox is rooting for has no effect on the outcome of the game, so who cares? :scratch:

Frontman
04-25-2008, 09:47 PM
In the real world, the Sox don't play with such as margin for error. In 2006, Thomas pretty much knocked the Sox out of the race during a series in Oakland.

So Thomas was responsible for Jose Contreras not doing well in the second half of 2006? He turned Brandon McCarthy into a belt-high fastball pitcher? He made Ozzie play Rob Mackowiak over Brian Anderson?

Every game counts. I understand what point you are trying to make, but it isn't the be-all end-all of baseball for one player to do well against his former team and cost them a return to the playoffs.

It's Dankerific
04-25-2008, 10:00 PM
I like Big Frank and I hope he does well whenever he plays. I don't root for him to beat the Sox, but a couple garbage time HRs? no problem. This isn't fantasy baseball, i dont care if the sox win 12-3 or 2-1.

The fact that KW has a problem with Big Frank doesnt turn me against him.. if anything, it makes Frank a little more loveable.

DSpivack
04-25-2008, 10:57 PM
It wasn't a squeeze, but you have the rest of the story right. Since then Thomas' success against the White Sox have led to the White Sox losing.

Yeah, there were 2 outs, right? And what caused the winning run to score was Pablo being safe at first, beating the throw?

TDog
04-26-2008, 02:07 AM
Yeah, there were 2 outs, right? And what caused the winning run to score was Pablo being safe at first, beating the throw?

Yes. A squeeze ostensibly is a sacrifice, although it can end up being scored as a hit. With the winning run coming to the plate, there won't be a play at first in an attempted game-ending squeeze. You can't squeeze (sacrifice) home a run with two outs. If getting the runner at first base would end the inning, it isn't a squeeze. Unfortunately, the reporters covering the game didn't know enough about baseball to know the difference, and it was originally reported as a squeeze. AP ran a correction late in the evening.

The play that ended the 2000 ALDS in Seattle was a squeeze. The play that ended the Frank Thomas two-home run game at the cell in 2006 was not.

Excuse the digression. I'm just bewildered at how little baseball writers know about baseball, and this play brought out the worst in them.