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Bruizer
04-17-2008, 05:28 PM
Interesting article in the Seattle Times:


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2004354480_seam17.html

Madvora
04-17-2008, 05:46 PM
I have heard this before about Cicotte getting the idea from the World Series the year before.

Vernam
04-17-2008, 07:07 PM
Media cover-up!

Half the Cub fans will accuse the Sox of having copied them, and the other half will be celebrating because they've got another 10 years to overcome the jinx. :gah:

Oh, and the Red Sox fans will whine because they missed two more years when they could've been agonizing over their drought. Life is so unfair.

Vernam

CWSpalehoseCWS
04-17-2008, 07:25 PM
I have heard this before about Cicotte getting the idea from the World Series the year before.

Cicotte wasn't the the guy that came up with it though. It was Gandil and Risberg.

eastchicagosoxfan
04-17-2008, 07:41 PM
There are rumors that the A's threw the 1914 Series against the Miracle Braves. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Cubs threw the Series. Especially after the collapse of the Federal League. Although only a handful of high profile players jumped to the Federal League, who knows how much money the owners pledged to players to stay loyal. I think Joe Tinker of Cub fame jumped to the Federal League. Perhaps the Cubs promised certain money to players to stay towards the end of the 1915 season. The Federal League collapsed, but maybe the players were promised things that no longer mattered after the Federal League collapsed. Just speculating.

Railsplitter
04-17-2008, 07:55 PM
Media cover-up!



Oh, and the Red Sox fans will whine because they missed two more years when they could've been agonizing over their drought. Life is so unfair.


Maybe 1946, 1967, 1975, and 1986 would have gone differently.

Madvora
04-17-2008, 10:16 PM
Cicotte wasn't the the guy that came up with it though. It was Gandil and Risberg.
Yeah, you're right. I knew that.
I guess I was just paraphrasing what they said in the article about Cicotte's affidavit.

CWSpalehoseCWS
04-17-2008, 11:57 PM
Yeah, you're right. I knew that.
I guess I was just paraphrasing what they said in the article about Cicotte's affidavit.

I didn't read the article when I posted that. I understand what you where saying.

Oblong
04-18-2008, 07:43 AM
Are the accounts of the 1919 series portrayed in Eight Men Out, both the book and movie, considered to be historically accurate? I always assumed they took some liberty just to get the overall point across. Meaning, wether it was Cicotte or Gandhil or Risberg who inititated it was really irrelevant since all 3 were involved.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the 1918 series, or even many others, were fixed. It was just a different culture back then.

SOXPHILE
04-18-2008, 09:08 AM
From what I've heard, it was much more common than people realize. I'm not excusing what the 1919 White Sox did. They just happened to be the ones that actually got caught. A story I've heard is that in 1920,- (maybe Lip can help on this one) - after the Cubs lost a game and looked a little suspicious in doing so, one sportswriter commented to another that it was pretty obvious they flubbed some plays and threw the game. The other sportswriter said something to the affect of "you think this is bad, you should see the stuff I kept track of in last years' World Series", and it took off from there.

downstairs
04-18-2008, 11:10 AM
I have to belive quite a few series- and maybe even regular season games- were thrown in that era.

To think the White Sox were the first and only to do it is silly. The reasons they threw the series were not unique to the White Sox.

TornLabrum
04-18-2008, 05:40 PM
The grand jury investigation that led to the Black Sox scandal actually began as an investigation of a Cubs pitcher (I don't recall which one) who was approached by gamblers to throw a game. My memory is bad on the details, but I believe he either told his bosses or they somehow found out, and he was pulled from the start and Pete Alexander was brought in to pitch. (Ironically he lost the game.)

As grand jury investigations are wont to do, the focus spread to the 1919 Series and Cicotte broke first, followed by Jackson. Jackson was advised by Comiskey's attorney, Albert Austrian, to confess. Jackson, thinking that Austrian was acting in his interest rather than Comiskey's did so. This may be one reason that Jackson's confession is so self-contradictory.

Be that as it may, the Black Sox were the tip of the iceberg. Hal Chase had been throwing games for years, at least as far back as 1908. Chase was considered to be the best fielding first baseman of his day, and he was adept at looking good while intentionally booting the ball.

Tribune reporter Hugh Fullerton (played by Studs Terkel in the movie) was the reporter who with the help of Christy Mathewson noted all of the suspicious plays in the series.

Ring Lardner (played by John Sayles in the movie) actually did what the movie showed. He drunkenly passed through the Sox train singing:

"I'm forever blowing ballgames
Pretty ballgames in the air
I come from Chi
I hardly try
I go to bat and fade and die

"Fortunes coming my way
That's why I don't care
I'm forever blowing ballgames
And the gamblers treat us fair"

eastchicagosoxfan
04-18-2008, 06:07 PM
Hal Chase, one of the most notorious cheats in the history of the game, alledgedly told Mathewson of the cheating during the 1919 series.

Lip Man 1
04-18-2008, 11:42 PM
In this week's print edition of the Sporting News (page 6) Sean Deveney had a full page story on this.

As "evidence" he uses the following:

1. Ed Cicotte's affidavit that he gave to the 1920 Cook County Grand Jury where he says the idea to throw the series came on a train to New York discussing how it had been done in 1918.

2. The long lost diary of Comiskey's right hand man Harry Grabiner, who indicates the 1918 World Series was fixed.

3. The reporting by Hugh Fullerton who indicated something was wrong with the 1918 World Series. (Fullerton is the guy who cracked open the 1919 Black Sox scandal)

Devaney looked through the box scores / play by play of the 1918 World Series and came to the conclusion that those results indicate something was afoot. He offers specific examples in the story.

Lip

GeoffNotBlum
04-21-2008, 11:53 AM
In the Sports Illustrated Commemerative Issue after the 2005 Series, there is a reprint (p.71) of a 1956 article, as Chick Gandil told it to Melvin Durslag.

Gandil was talking to Sport Sullivan about throwing the Series to Cincinnati:

I said to Sullivan it wouldn't work. He answered, "Don't be silly. It's been done before, and it can be again."

D. TODD
04-21-2008, 12:45 PM
Hal Chase, one of the most notorious cheats in the history of the game, alledgedly told Mathewson of the cheating during the 1919 series. There is a good book all about Chase and his nefarious ways called "The Black Prince of Baseball".

oeo
04-21-2008, 03:05 PM
Here's another curse to add to their list.